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Report: Williams, Brown not very elusive

Earlier this week I wrote this column stating the Dolphins intentions of remaining a run-first team and telling you how intriguing that is, considering the Dolphins don't have any proven starting caliber running backs on the roster.

Yes, the club can always re-sign Ricky Williams or Ronnie Brown or both. But I wrote that I wouldn't count on either being back.

This despite the fact coach Tony Sparano made very clear during his meeting with the media that he had no problems with the way Brown and Williams played last year. He actually said they played well.

Of course, I've reminded you time and again not to get too caught up in what the Dolphins say as much as what they do. If Williams and Brown played so well, how come the club opted not to re-sign either one before the labor agreement fell off the cliff into an abyss of pending legal challenges?

Well, the able folks at ProFootballFocus.com have crunched the numbers and they'll be happy to tell you why neither Williams nor Brown were priorities -- their numbers confirm what your eyes should have been telling you:

Neither Williams nor Brown were very good at gaining yardage on their own last season. Neither was good at breaking tackles or running away from tackles.

ProFootballFocus refers to this as its elusive rating. It measures a back's ability and performance independent of the blocking in front of him. This rating is a great equalizer in that it removes the advantages running backs that play behind great offensive lines have over those who do not.

PFF further states their elusive rating filters out coaching and playcalling, as well as the other 10 guys on the offense.

So where did Brown and Williams rate in 2010?

Bottom 20 of 58 rated backs.

Brown rated No. 48 of 58 with an elusive rating of 20.8. Keep in mind Ladell Betts had the worst elusive rating, according to PFF.com, with a 3.1. LeGarrette Blount led PFF's elusive ratings at 89.8.

Brown, the website said, gained 58.6 percent of his yards after contact or 2.2 yards per carry. That's bottom-third ordinary. Blount gained over 73 percent of his yards after contact and Oakland's Darren McFadden averaged 3.5 yards after contact.

For perspective, understand that Adrian Peterson gained 877 of his 1,298 after contact last season. Brown gained a total of 734 yards.

Ricky Williams fared better. But not much.

He ranked 40th of 58 backs, with an elusive rating of 26.7. He was in the same company with backs such as Willis McGahee and Michael Bush.

Williams averaged 2.5 yards per carry after contact, according to PFF. He had 404 yards after contact for the season -- meaning 60 percent of his yards came after contact.

The stats would suggest that if the Dolphins want to bring back the more effective back from last year, it would be Williams. The problem is no one can predict if Williams, who turns 34 in May, will simply fall of the table with wear because of his age or continue to provide semi-acceptable play.

The elusive rating article doesn't mention Brown or Williams except for one instance but it is interesting.

One more thing: DeAngelo Williams, the back many Dolphins fans are eyeing because he's scheduled to be an unrestricted free agent is not on the 2010 report because he was injured much of the season. Williams had an elusive rating of 42.61 in 2009, which was 15th best in the NFL.

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Carlito, that was my sleeper mock not actually what I think they'd do... Or I would do... I'd do ridiculous things I'm sure everyone would hate...
1st Jake Locker QB
2nd Marcus Cannon G
3rd Jordan Cameron TE
4th Ricky Elmore OLB
5th Bilal Powell RB
6th Vincent Brown WR
6th Jason Kirkpatrick C
7th LeStar Jean WR
7th Nic Grigsby RB

if it's not Locker with a trade down then I'd pick Dalton in the 2nd. And draft the best OL available with the late 1st... probably Pouncey



I would prefer Palmer over Young, Young over Kolb(I don't know Flynn). That's the way I see it.

Oregon Dont worry about the fake posts. It is not like they made you bad or something.

correction: made you LOOK bad

I would rather see Sheets and Hilliard running the ball than bring Brown and Williams back. They did not break tackles last year, if they were touched they fell down.

In my opinion, Sheets is just too small to block those huge defenders. Only to be used in special situations. I have not seen where Hilliard is better than R&R.

Then again I am an idiot.

We know you want to get out, Armando, but unfortunately, you're stuck.

Here's the part that I don't get, from all the guys who are saying taking Ingram at 15 is a mistake. Do you think the Detroit Lions and their fans are saying, "Damn those Lions. Why the Hell did we pick Best last year in the first round. If we hadn't of picked him and we'd have picked somebody else we wouldn't have gone from 2-14 to 6-10. We would have gone from 2-14 to 10-6". No I don't think they are. I think they are saying, "Thank God we picked Jahvid Best in the first round last year. He was a big contributor to our team and helped us improve our record by 4 games".

I think we're in the same boat. We got next to no production out of the running back spot (I think we finished like 29th or 31st in overall production) and a lot of you guys want to bury your heads in the sand and say 'let's just pick up a late round back and everything will be fine'. I think that's irresponsible and the kind of stuff that gets guys fired. The problem is right in front of our noses, 'we don't have the horses to get it done in the running game'. Now a lot of you just want to pick up a 'maybe' QB and think that's the prudent thing to do. You're basically conceding the season and saying 'we're not good enough, so let's take a step backwards before we move ahead'. I think that's a deafeatist attitude. We've got some good talent on the team in the form of Dansby, Wake, Davis, Long, Marshall and others. You want to send a message to these guys that 'we're not looking to win next year. We're going to wait for our 'might be' QB to develop. Hang in there for a couple more years.' Total crap!!

We have ONE pick right now in the first 76 picks. MAKE IT COUNT!

Sup fellas,

News Flash!!!! This just in... Older RBs Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams are NOT elusive? What the? Say it ain't so!

They both started off with mediocre to decent wiggle in the first place...how does that get better with age? Their game was about having enough speed to gallop some in the open field and making people pay for tackling them. Nice size to speed ratios for them. You want elusive you have to get a Barry Sanders type runner that can start and stop on a dime.

R&R not being elusive is not exactly a breaking story imho. If the Fins draft Ingram I fear it will be more of the same.

The clock ticks closer to having the Bifecta unveil it's master plan to get the players they think will point the Fins in the direction of saving their jobs.

I hope there is a trade back in there somewhere to add additional picks but it is tough to spot the trade scenario that works. Maybe a JJ Watt falls and teams get enamored with his size? Maybe someone will want Ingram badly enough as the Chargers wanted RB Mathews in the year prior?

By all accounts the Fins brass needs to uncork a nice draft and hit on a few solid players if they want to gain ground on the Pats and Jets. I say this in the most optimistic way as I don't believe we are as far behind as our record differential might indicate.

In the game of of inches most NFL seasons turn on several key plays for most any team. If we get a decent call in the Pitt game and our players (**COUGH**, Sean Smith) hold onto some of the very catchable INTs we probably win another 3 more games. Just that swing alone puts us into the playoff hunt.

This regime simply better not pass over good talent that may need some grooming in lieu of going only with the talent that can play right away. Imho that will cause draft mistakes as it will limit the pool of players they have to choose from too much.


Craig M,

The whole Ingram thing comes down to two main issues by regular bloggers here.

1. Some say Ingram is a bust, too slow, not worthy of 15, yadayada. Well only time will tell if he is a bust or not because he is getting drafted in the first round by somebody. My only rebuttal to that is something that I already posted a couple of weeks back, which I'll repeat here - "in the last three years, at least 3 RB's were taken in the first round. A total of 5 RBs were taken earlier than 15. Ten different GM's, who get paid big bucks to spend their lives analyzing the draft, did not think it was stupid or foolish to draft an RB in the first round." And one additional note, only one Heismann winning RB was drafted beyond the 14 slot, so the reality is, as confirmed by GM's across the league and in the most recent 3 years no less, #15 is very fair value for the #1 rated back in the draft.

2. The other popular argument is that the line is horrible and not even a bulldozer could run through it, so they want to draft oline first and grab an RB later. My rebuttal to that is that while the oline needs help, it's not in total shambles like some are implying. Nate Garner is coming back and its quite reasonable to think Jerry will show improvement in his second year. We really just need one guard, while Ricky, Ronnie, Cobbs, and Polite were not offered contracts and no longer on the team, that is 3 RB's and 1 FB we are currently short. Doesn't seem to unreasonable to me to conclude the running game is in far worse shape than the oline at this point in time.

A good point, Rob, and I repeat, I'm glad I'm not Ireland.

Afternoon Craig M,

I am one of the ones that you are speaking about that say (Just like in my last post) drafting Ingram will be the mistake and not the other way around.

I have ZERO defeatest attitude thank you very much. I just believe in the draft you have to wind up with STAR CALIBER players to win...period.

I have heard from many, many Ingram supporters this super annoying disclaimor... "Well, now, I am NOT claiming that Ingram will be the next Emmitt Smith or anything, just a decent, solid, move the chains guy".

I absolutely HATE that logic! If you or anyone else really believe that, why on earth would you take him at #15 in the 1st round??? The 1st round is suppose to be for pulling the game changers out period. If the game that gets changed is a year from now then so be it. If the way that player changes the game is on DEF then so be it.

Drafting a "solid contributor" type player with the 15th pick seems like the settling route to me. That is more "defeatest attitude" to me. "Oh well, I need to save my job and this guy is the guy most feel is at the top of a category we need so, lets take him".

I'm not buying it.

I believe they need to swing for the fences and hit the home run.

Fact: The draft is a crapshoot.

Fact: The Bifecta is down chips at the table (No #2 and currently on borrowed time)

Fact: Recent drafts have shown that RB's can be had later and there also is a GANG of solid RBs in FA, whenever that arrives.

Fact: This regime is no more sold on Henne than the Man on the Moon. Hence they need to bring in major competition.

Fact: Waiting to draft a QB means they can ONLY use FA QBs to save their skin should they limp through another subpar season and NOT get canned.

Fact: There is NOTHING special about Ingrams measurables.

Fact: Most RBs Ingrams size are not blocking machines regardless of where they get drafted.

I would say these "Facts" would point to bringing in players that have "dynamic potential".

What sayeth you my friend?


PS You and I are both on the QB Colin Kaepernick later on bandwagon if they don't go QB early. Intriguing skillset that guy has.


Thanks man...you and me both sound like we are on a similar page. Despite what Ross has tried to say publicly, I feel in his mind both Sparano and Ireland have one foot in the unemployment line and one foot on a banana peel.

With solid drafting in 2011, grabbing good FA's when that comes around eventually and Daboll get some better results on OFF they can pull back on the yoke.

They are flying over heavy flak right now though so we shall see.


Does anyone really believe that if we drafted Ingram,he'd automatically help us win an extra 3-4 games next season? The bottom line is teams can always win games regardless whos at RB.

Just look at the 2 best RB's in the league...Adrian Peterson & Chris Johnson,both had good seasons but the Vikings and the Titans were utter drivel.

The Packers did'nt run well all season but they ended up winning the Superbowl.

Personally,i wouldn't like Ingram because he's not talked about as the next Peterson or Johnson and for a team that desperatelly needs alot of speed on the offensive side of the ball,he doesn't have alot of that also.

The question still remains...can Henne become a good QB to take this team to the next level? If i were Sparano,i'd be more concerned with that than trying to decide if Ingram is our 1st rounder...

If we trade Hilliard and/ or Cobbs they'll both end up on the Pats and win S.B rings.
I just read a mock that has the Fins taking W.R. Torrey Smith. Anyone know anything about him?

Rob, dang between you and fin4 I really got my hands full!

The chances of us being able to trade back, let's just say for arguments sake is 50/50. We very well may have to pick at #15.

While several scouting reports suggest Ingram needs work at blocking, most rookie backs do. Since you are into 'measurables', Ingram has a far better potential to be a solid RB and blocker than any of those other late rounders. While there is a long list of FA backs, many come with high price tags or have had too many injuries lately or both to invest in.

I fail to see your argument, you are far more likely to get less than Ingram in the late rounds. There are measurables, and there are intangibles, which is where Ingram excells. Wasn't it you that said you were a fan of McShay? Or maybe it was fin4. Here is his take from a recent article.

"If, McShay said, Miami does select Ingram, they’ll get the only running back he grades out high enough to go in the first round. His scouting report:

“I know he isn’t your ideal measurable guy, if you will. He doesn’t have the prototypical body, and he doesn’t run the fast 40 time and all that. But the way he runs, his pad level, his low center of gravity, his ability to create yards after contact, he has such a great sense of the cutback lanes, and more so than anybody else in that class, he feels what’s going to happen ahead of time. He just has that innate sense about him.

“I have no problem with him coming off the board in the first 20 picks; if he falls a little bit, the team that gets him in the last 12 picks of the first round could wind up getting a steal."

Hmmm, sounds good to me especially for a team with no starting RB's on the roster. Is he the next Eric Dickerson? Doubt it. Do I like him at 15 and think its fair value? Absolutely.

The thing is, If Mr. Orange Carpet himself is not satisfied with HIS Fins at the end of whatever season we have next year...

Could he resist a SPLASH move like getting a Grudden, Cowher or other "High Profile Ex-Coach" of some sort then let that coach clean house and install his own regime?

His open chase of Harbaugh says he is not one to wait around too long for results.

For the record I would have chased Coach Harbaugh in private BUT I am NOT down on Ross for letting the cat out of the bag either.

Jimmy Johnson used to say "Fear is the ultimate motivator". I tend to agree as in general success breeds complacency. If Sparano believed that his job was safe he may not self analyize as much as he may needs to.

I felt Ross was in a tough spot. If he keeps the search under wraps then the fan base complains he is NOT an agressive owner that wants to win. If he conducts the search publicly (which he chose) he takes heat for the manner in which it was done but at least us fans know he is trying to better the team.

A lot of fans express dissatisfaction with Ross. He is the 2nd richest owner according to articles. He went out and signed two FAT checks for Dansby AND Marshall in FA to better the team.

He has tried to change the fan experience for the better (albeit some changes have not been well received).

What's not to like?


ALOCO You got me partner, I am collecting welfare and need you and all the other slaves to keep doing your part, while I hang in my trailer park sitting in my dirty underwear, my green teeth gleeming ear to ear as I tipe.

By the way you need to get a second job my kid needs new sneekers, I will send you my address so you can get it to me, I cant afford it I need the cash to buy me my shlitz malt beer, so go home and get your shine box punk.

craig m

i won't be upset if we draft ingram at 15 but i'd rather we traded down (if he's there again go for it) he's less of a risk than some of the qb's people are hot on, he'll likely be able to start, and whilst other rb's in later rounds might do well this guy is a better bet (the best bet in the draft) for consistent run yardage for the next few years (longtrem darfting)

and if ts stays that's what we'll be doing

but, i would worry about his hands, so if we miss him i'm looking for a better hands rb, and run after the catch guy- look what rice did to us in the ravens game, ck down flacco that day and rice was all over us

i hear u rob in oc, but i'd settle for solid, and ingram is the graded for the best chance of "star quality" rd 1 drafts need to start, be big play makers within 2 seasons and probowler within 4 to be a success (imo)

fact (?) draft is a crapshoot, but not entirely, fo judgement is recognised as being a key factor in drafting well

we need 2 rb rookies this year anyway

Rob, Ross publicly embarrassed himself and the franchise running all over the country looking for a HC while TS was still on board. Thats what you call low class. That's what you call cowardly, not have the balls to take care of business first. No way Cowher was going to have a face to face with Ross with a HC already in place.

Ross if anything did more to scare off other more experienced OC's and other coaches by giving the entire NFL the feeling this is a lame duck season for TS.

That's whats not to like.


WR Torrey Smith A fast wide receiver that seems to have a nice mix of skills that translate into being more than just "a track star" player.

Smith himself hates that label as he has never run track. lol.

I was not a big fan of his but my research has moved me to he would be a dang good #2 guy. I would not want him at #15 if I could possibly help it.

Me personally I am higher on WR Jerrel Jernigan as you could get him later in the draft. I feel that value would be better imho.


it's not quite the same i'd agree but what ross did was a bit like benching sparano and then finding his replacement had a dislocated shoulder and couldn't play - "ok ts back to u then"- if they start winning next season they'll be cool, we'll be cool, if not who cares we'll all be miserable and ross will have to do something

however it doesn't change the fact that we need to draft quality young players to build for the future , #1 don't mortgage the future on a reach, #2 darft for a borad based on talent and need


How are you man? Seems we rise again to cross sabres on our viewpoints yet again. lol... I wouldn't have it any other way.

It seems you have a lot of this:

Faith = noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

Those are two versions of what the dictionary discribes as faith.

You seem to be a big believer in intangibles or that "IT" factor. I do as well, just from a different viewpoint. Like I don't believe Henne has "IT". Regardless, as the CBA cards are falling it looks like Henne will get another shot to compete and I am fine with that... as long as they bring in major competition.

Read that as I would draft and bring in a FA QB. For me that FA is Vince Young. The drafted QB would be Mallet, Ponder, Kaepernick in that order. My late round flyer QB would be Scott Tolzein from Wisconsin as he has uncanny accuracy.

To give an analogy I view the NFL as a Pass first league and I believe the last SB and most of the rules dictate that.

You HAVE to pass to get back into games when behind by more than just one score.

The 10-15 play mostly rushing drives are more likely to get a hold or false start to kill the drive.

If you put Ingram on the pedestal in your mind that you have him on I can see why you fail to see my arguement.

Maybe buffeting you with the facts simply doesn't work? Maybe you think Ingram that is already coming off his OWN injured college season will somehow be a 3-down, intangibles laiden, blocking, rushing, catching factor back in the NFL where the players are faster and more ferocious?

When you add his own injury history, his lack of prototype size to his pedestrian speed how do you see the Superman cape?

You make the comment..."is he Eric Dickerson? No" I want my #15 choice in the first round to at least have the hope of being the next E. D. is all.

McShay must be fins4life's guy. I will listen to ALL opinions including yours. Then I apply anything I know to be true or not with my own research, study and trust my own eyeballs. Then I always remember that this is a guessing game and the Pro's, pundits and draftniks are all taking there best guess alongside me.

Just because it seems like most everyone is piling ALL their draft roullette chips on Ingram as a #15 pick and "Best RB" in the draft class, my research and eyes say different. I have to be true to what I believe and steer clear of the Ingram bandwagon.

I actually listen most intently to Michael Lombardi, Charlie Casserly and Mayock. Mayock mostly because he just speaks intelligently and not because he has been there and done that.

Lombardi and Casserly have actually sat in those GM / Scouting Director seats with real bullets flying. Neither of those guys is heaping the same amount of praise on Ingram as Mayock, McShay, Davis and others.




You can be embarrassed if you like. If he fires TS and then pursues Harbaugh and loses out like he did... then were are we in this CBA labor BS mess.

How does that net us a better coach?

He could not go with Cohwer or ANY other big name coach as those guys want to clean house and bring in their own GM.

Ross wanted Ireland to stay and so he needed to keep TS on in case he couldn't get Harbaugh. Most would choose to conduct the search in private but I feel he had to send the very public message to the paying fan base that he was trying to improve the team.

TS should feel like ALL NFL coaches should feel. Glad to have a job that only 32 men on the planet can have in any given year.

Doing it in the order you are talking about is like saying a renter saying "I will start to look for a new place to live after I give the landlord 30 days notice". As you can see it was a good thing he didn't fire TS or he would have to move on and find another candidate. He felt Harbaugh would be an upgrade and couldn;t land him. He also didn't say that Sparano was terrible fallback and thusly didn't fire him. If Tony Sparano was so bent and embarrassed by the move...heck, resign?

TS is a grown man, he will get over it, although it sounds like you may have not.


0x80 & Rob,

Nice to get a shot to catch up with both of you at the same time !

I think that in all of our discussions we loose sight of a very important aspect when talking about what position to draft in round 1 this year. I really believe we should draft the best available talent we can at either OL, RB or WR, then the question for me becomes who`s truely the best talent ? After all there will be another draft next year, that might offer somebody more electrifying players at skill pos. or more stout at the Line and like we`ve all agreed in the past this draft won`t address all of the team`s needs.

Is Ingram the best available talent at our positions of need or can we get someone as good or better in the next draft ? I would venture to guess we probabaly could and that`s why I hate the pick at 15 because this line of thinking deminishes the value for me. This is without a doubt one of the best classes in years though to take a quality OL in round 1, you can make an argument for taking at least 3 of them in round 1 and I can`t remember the last time you could say that about OL with any sort of conviction.

The best talent available aproach works best on a team full of blue chippers but mediocre on over all talent which we are, now considering that J.Jones and A.Costanzo should be off the boards when we pick then the argument becomes for me about who`s the best available talent moving foward, I think we need to start thinking more along the lines of the grand scheme of things moving foward and not saddle ourselves in reaching early this year.

Listen, Mark Ingram is, I believe, a very good player, and I would draft him hands downs, if we didn't have greater needs. So is Julio Jones. But, but...

the wolf, icu @ 1:21 (Thanks for the response)

You wrote:

i hear u rob in oc, but i'd settle for solid, and ingram is the graded for the best chance of "star quality" rd 1 drafts need to start, be big play makers within 2 seasons and probowler within 4 to be a success (imo)

fact (?) draft is a crapshoot, but not entirely, fo judgement is recognised as being a key factor in drafting well

we need 2 rb rookies this year anyway

Posted by: the wolf, icu | March 27, 2011 at 01:21 PM

In my own humble opinion, if Ingram EVER gets to a Pro Bowl I will be floored. I am simply not buying the burst only don't need speed in NFL plus intangibles = success arguement with the guy.

You and I are in complete argreement that while he can make some catches he is by no means a natural pass catcher of any kind. I believe this will reveal itself more when the NFL gives him more coverage and tighter, more contested windows to make plays in the pass game.

As to the draft being a crapshoot is surely is hands down. I do completely agree that a great FO can diminsh those strike out drafts. My challenge is that I am not sure that this FO has "the goods" to constantly dig out good players.

They are not the worst by any means and that is why I am not calling for their heads BUT, no way they are in the Polian, Newsome, A.J Smith class as of yet. Maybe it's at the scouting level moreso but, it's Irelands job to fix that if that is the case.

Cheers Mr. Wolf!


Well first off I'd like to thank you for the dictionary lesson. I may just have to reread that book.

Secondly, while we are on the subject, preceding any comment with the word FACT as you have done several times, does not make it a fact. Oh wouldn't that be nice if it did? There is a difference between FACT, OPINION, and CONJECTURE. Rather than give you the answer, I will leave it to you as a homework assignment.

Now the problem with blogging, is that not all bloggers see all the comments of all other bloggers, so there are always bits and pieces to the argument missing. Sure, I'd like a RB with Dickersons potential too, but none are in this draft, and we kinda need an RB or two or three.

We inevitably come down to the 15 pick, none of my arguments ever take into account a trade down because that is too unknown. That right there is a point I've made several times. I've also said several times that if someone from the top 10 falls, like Julio Jones, grab him. Mark Ingram is not so high on my pedestal as you think, all though I may very well be high on him at 15 depending on who else is there, and I am going by who is likely to be there, as opposed to someone that may drop further than expected.

the wolf, icu @1:33

Nice points, good post.

With your last line... I would lean towards talent over need.

The thing is, with the FA after the draft and the regime having shaky faith in Henne I believe they will try a stab at a QB. Whether they target a heavy duty FA later then they will probably wait on drafted QB some. If they are NOT planning of chasing a heavy duty FA, then I think they will go after the 3rd QB (on their board) if he is available at 15.

Good stuff man, keep it coming.



We need to draft somebody with explosive ability, we don`t have anybody on our roster right now we can say that about. I truely believe if we can`t get that explosive player and have to got the route of filling in another cog there is much more value in adding to the OL than drafting another serviceable back, we don`t have to reach in the 1st for a RB this season there will be other drafts.


There is an old saying, 'guts pays off'. Show leadership, verve, swagger. Can the guy cold and clean and then the door opens wide for better options. Doing it Ross's way probably prevented us from getting a more experienced OC, among other things. We have quite a few new coaches with no experience at their new position.

I merely disagreed with your assessment of how he handled things. By NFL standards it just wasn't professional or beneficial.

I can assure you I have nothing to get over. This is entertainment for me and nothing more.


Welcome aboard the board today man!

Way to throw your hat in the ring.


IT`s been a while since I`ve caught everybody on at once, cool !!


I totally agree with you. Me putting the word "Fact" in front of my statements doesn't nescessarily make it so. The could be construed as OPINION or CONJECTURE as you have contended... I have conveniently cut and pasted what I beleive to be "Facts" from my prior post.

Can you kindly point out the ones you would move to more on the CONJECTURE or OPINION side than Facts as I have stated them?

1.) Fact: The draft is a crapshoot.

2.) Fact: The Bifecta is down chips at the table (No #2 and currently on borrowed time)

3.) Fact: Recent drafts have shown that RB's can be had later and there also is a GANG of solid RBs in FA, whenever that arrives.

4.) Fact: This regime is no more sold on Henne than the Man on the Moon. Hence they need to bring in major competition.

5.) Fact: Waiting to draft a QB means they can ONLY use FA QBs to save their skin should they limp through another subpar season and NOT get canned.

6.) Fact: There is NOTHING special about Ingrams measurables.

7.) Fact: Most RBs Ingrams size are not blocking machines regardless of where they get drafted.

Of the 7 I presented as "Facts"...which ones are the most misleading and why?

Thanks in advance for your reply.


fin4life @ 2:29

Very well said, (pounds the table) in agreement!


6.) Fact: There is NOTHING special about Ingrams measurables.

7.) Fact: Most RBs Ingrams size are not blocking machines regardless of where they get drafted.

When analizing value at pick 15 this becomes the most glaring sticking point for me, at the end of the day it`s an opinion and nothing else but I don`t think our options are best served with another serviceable cog in the machine, we need a difference maker and yes OL can be that as well.

FACT !!!!

The best talent available aproach works best on a team full of blue chippers but mediocre on over all talent which we are, now considering that J.Jones and A.Costanzo should be off the boards when we pick then the argument becomes for me about who`s the best available talent moving foward, I think we need to start thinking more along the lines of the grand scheme of things moving foward and not saddle ourselves in reaching early this year.

Publicado por: fin4life | March 27, 2011 at 02:15 PM

0x80 @ 2:33

Point taken... I am glad it is entertainment for you as well.

It seems like Ross chose to keep Ireland as GM prior to his coaching search.

In doing that he already limited his options to the less bigger coaching fish in the pond. The big coaching fish always seem to desire choosing their GM or not come aboard as Cohwer did not after being contacted.

If Ross was shopping for a coach and bring their new Boss Ireland along, good luck finding a "Splash" guy.

From my seat it looks like after pinging Cowher and figuring this dynamic out, he went after Harbaugh as strong as he could and ended up settling for what he already had in TS.

If he fires TS he absolutely cannot bring him back. The options at that point are too unknown with all this labor unrest. As a Billionaire I think Ross has enough life experience that his quest was public for his own reasons that we may never know.

Bottomline is we still have TS as head coach and Ross still owns the team so we buckle our chinstraps as fans and hope for better returns in 2011 or whenever the Players and Owners "Ungreedy" the whole pie.


f4l and rob

i'm with u guys

thing is we're either 1 (15), 3,4 etc or 1 (late), 2, 3, 4
or 1 (late), 3,3,4 etc

need rb/ol 2 of first 3 , other qb/wr unless outstanding talent falls to that pic and fo can't pass

i'll still take ingram or one of those ol guys anywhere in 1st round, but i agrre we need a burst guy with good hands (mcoy.rice type)

if it's 15 i don't mind if they go for extra d that they think can't be passed or j jones/green (miracle)

pat white was a disaster and that pic colors our feelings about the fo quite rightly, but most of last years picks can't be judged fully yet, last year might have been a good draft by the fo when we look back in another 2 years

also we don't know the influence bp really had and how the dynamics/judgements will change

remember in 2007 we had very little decent on our roster, now we're young and building, as long as we don't trade away more picks i feel we'll make further progress this year, for me it's not just about next year (though i am very hungry!) it's about the next 5-6 and sustained success without the embarassment

we need to own the pats and we need to feel that we can do that without fluking it!!!


0X80 @2:33

I agree whole heartedly as well, I also think Ireland during the process saw 1st. hand that he was deemed expendable by any new incoming Coach. I think that after seeing that he might have had a hand (more than likely) in convincing Ross to give them one more chance at righting the ship.


I was going to leave it for you, as a homework assignment, but didn't want you to think I was running away on you.

1. Not a fact - its a guessing game, you can rarely be certain about any pick, but to call it a TOTAL CRAPSHOOT implies that it doesn't matter whether you pick, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. It also doesn't explain why some teams have consistently done well in the draft while others have consistenly done quite poorly.

2. Not a fact - think about that statement, its somewhere between opinion and conjecture, nothing more than your perception based on no inside information whatsoever.

3. Not a fact - Opinion... you think the FA is full of backs, true, but how good are they really? I think very few are anything more than fill the gap to buy time. So we both have a different OPINION. I have a FACT for you...in the last 3 drafts at least 3 backs have been taken in the 1st round, and 5 before #15. Sure RB's can be found late in the draft, um, and so can guards centers NTs and WR's, whats your point? Also, backs need to be evaluated over several years, not just a good rookie season.

4. Not a fact. Logically they are short QB's and need to find more. You can only guess what they really think about Henne. A 2nd year starter getting benched temporarily does not necessarily mean they have given up on him. Possibly, but not a fact. Merely conjecture.

5. Not a fact - pure speculation on your part and you have no idea if they have enough interest in any QB to pick them in the 1st.

6. Not a fact - Whos list of measurables? And what is the standard by each measurable? And did every great back exceed those measurables? Just as you don't go by what the pundits say and merely consider their point, I don't go by what ever is that standard undefined list of measurables. It's easy to measure 40 time with a stop watch, hard to measure vision, reading the blocks, hitting holes effeectively. There is a fine line between measurables and intangibles.

7. No response - 'Most' is relative, and 'blocking machine' isn't the sole category they may be looking for so that deems it irrelevant, as opposed to what his potential blocking skills are when compared to the remaining backs in the draft or FA.

Well, out of your 7 facts I count 6 opinions and 1 comment. I'm afraid I can't give you a very good grade on your knowledge of FACTs. But, maybe this lesson will help you in the future.


If all the talk about Odrick being afflicted with osteoperosis is true then 2010 draft is a disaster ! I`ve read in more than one publication that he was diagnosed with the bone disorder in College, if there is any veracity to it then the team`s physician has alot to answer for by clearing him, adding to an already disfunctional situation.

f4l IF, IF, IF you're right IF he's got it and it's an ongoing problem affecting his peformance and can't be treated/managed in which case i'm a team physician hater,

this sounds like a job for the guy that writes on here, armando can u hear us?


I would put OT Castanzo right next to Ingram on my DO NOT Draft at #15 list.

I believe OT Tyron Smith will be the better player. If he is gone I don't have a true OT worthy of the 15th pick.

Actually, If pressed to take an OL at 15 I would draft C/G Mike Pouncey at 15 before any lineman besides OT T. Smith.

Like many I would say that finding a trade back partner will be tough this particular year.

Right now I would be on the hunt for explosive players that add overall team speed.

Some players that fit this bill for me in no draft or skill order but would add more dynamic ability to the Fins OFF:

WR Torrey Smith
WR Jerrel Jernigan
WR Randall Cobb
WR Titus Young
WR Ricardo Lockette
WR Edmund Gates

RB Taiwan Jones
RB Noel Devine
RB Kendall Hunter
RB Dion Lewis
RB DeMarco Murray
RB Jordan Todman

TE Julius Thomas
TE Schuylar Oordt



Odrick - I heard some rumors like that, but in a really quick poke around online a few days back, I read somewhere his rehab was going well. I wouldn't buy into that stuff until there is something a little more concrete written, and if there has been, I'd like to see the link. Would be a real blemish on the FO if it turns out to be true.

I do hate trading away picks(but look at Brandon Marshall) If there is anyway around, I won't trade.


6. Not a fact - Whos list of measurables? And what is the standard by each measurable? And did every great back exceed those measurables? Just as you don't go by what the pundits say and merely consider their point, I don't go by what ever is that standard undefined list of measurables. It's easy to measure 40 time with a stop watch, hard to measure vision, reading the blocks, hitting holes effeectively. There is a fine line between measurables and intangibles

Agreed when analizing just about every position except RB.

1)FACT: The stop watch while not the tell all on measurables doesn`t lie either and Ingram won`t be out running anybody trying to get around the corner or on his way to the endzone,regardless about what his 10 yard split says I`ll take the stop watch, it seemed to work well for Tenn. with CJ, Philly with L.MCcoy, K.C. with Charles ect...

2)FACT: His ability to block has to be weighed when analizing the fact he`s no home run hitter who can create with his moves and speed on his own.

3)FACT: He will need the above mentioned quality in order to succeed in Mia. given that our ability in the pass game will only invite keying on him and don`t forget the redzone were all of those yards he picks up 3 to 5 at a clip become meaningless with 8 to 9 in the box.

@ Rob,

I`ve watched alot of tape on these OL and T.Smith scares me a little, if you google there teams games not just them and watch, Smith seems to be very lazy about getting downfield and clearing space (2nd. level), the more I watch the more he`s W.Justice to me.

Costanzo on the other hand not only gets to the next level but if the play keeps moving he flows with it, I imagine it`s the T.E. in him, I would make a case for him and Carimi or for that matter Pouncey in at LG next to Long, although I`d rather get him trading down but no further than 22 or else the Giants will jump all over him.

Man, you don't measure football players, you KNOW football players.

fin4, two on one not fair!

Look, I responded to Robs FACTS to show him they were not FACTS.

I'll keep it simple, regarding your new FACTS...I'd agree with 95% of it. They seem fair assessments.

I'd really like to know who is going to handle the running game on this team in 2011? Every back has pluses and minuses, tell me what late round back will be as versatile as Ingram? Who would be better at anchoring the running game? Maybe Ingram isn't going to knock Ray Lewis on his butt or out run the secondary, but maybe he will get more first downs than anyone else, maybe he will create more 3rd and shorts than anybody else, maybe he will eat up the clock more than anyone else when needed. That doesn't mean you have to have 80 yard 20 play drives either. The only FA's I would touch would be Steven Jackson or Bradshaw, but Bradshaw can't handle the load on his own. I know you like Bush, I don't see it. Time will tell.


No doubt but you do have to measure ability in the NFL, if your going to tell me that you want Football players on your team regardless then good luck, me I`ll look for players with athletic potential of the charts.

Folks thinking that a reciever would be a good choice in round 1. Go no further then 1 year ago when we traded for BM as evidence that we have much bigger problems then WR. What I mean by this is that we aquired one of the top 5 recievers in the game last year. Many including myself thought he would be the piece that put our team over the top. Game on.

Not so much. Don't spew the Marshall had no help, we couldn't get the ball down field B.S.We had plenty of opportunities to get the ball down the field. The quarterback could not execute. Recievers where open. Strching the field is a myth when you have a passer that pees his pants on throws over 15 yards. How does adding a reciever help complete these passes?

I know that free agency will be a factor at some point. But name a quarterback out there(FA, or possible trade) that is a competant deep ball thrower.....Vince Young? Nope. Kevin Kolb? Maybe, but he is a short to medium route passer.

So now we have this super tandem outside. How does this make our team better? It doesn't. We may be more dynamic in fantasy world, or on paper. But using an early round pick on a reciever is a mistake. We have to make sure who ever is the quarterback is protected. We have to make sure that we can situationaly run the ball(short yardage, red zone) Say we do aquire Vince Young. Are we any better then we would be with Henne if we cannot run it. Nope.

It isn't sexy, it isn't a ticket seller. But I think our first priority is making sure the offensive line is solid before we worry about skill position players(quarterback aside) I wish that FA would magically appear before the draft. But I think that genie is staying in the bottle. It would make projecting the draft much easier.

I know no-one rates daboll but i'll give u 1 great stat from last season he had a 1-0 record against the pats

I like his intangibles, and he needs to prove himself to the world, where better than on a team whose offense struggled last year

(if only he could actually get to coach them players, oh well)


I`ve always told you my friend that I don`t dispute M.Ingram`s ability to be an above average RB in the NFL, I just wonder if that fit is us ? I can invision him in N.O. were he would be that added dimension that keeps the LB`s honest opening it up for J.Graham but in Mia. he will be another cog in an already slow O. We need to begin adding explosive elements to our team dynamic, we already got the blue chippers.

We definetly need to address the RB position, there is no doubt but all I`ve been trying to get accross to you is whether he`s the right fit ? Are we reaching at pick 15 ? I think we are reaching and no he isn`t the right fit, I say address RB later in the draft Rob put on a list and sign a FA,(long or short term answer will do for now) if it doesn`t work out then re-address it in another draft, were arguing as if this is the last draft for a few years or something.

dd @3.52

we were supposed to have a running game that was top ten at least to balance the passing game, then we realsied it wasn't happening so went with the "lets pass more", but as soon as we were driving we'd try a little wc or run and kill the drive, bm himself tipped passes for ints and dropped plenty

you're right that we still have multiple issues but overall bm was a good acquisition ( if he doesn't cancer out) especially if we look at the medium term growth of the team not just one season. i trust the d to be even better this year and that's what the focus was on last offseason (except bm)

any receiver upgrade has to stretch the field and beat out hartline and moore (wallace, diff type)


You know I agree about drafting an OL but I won`t dispute taking an explosive, electrifying player like J.Jones you can never have enough of them and I think that we will be bringing in Q.B. and drafting one as well, if we take our lumps than so be it but I won`t pass up on special kind of talent, we will more than likely require next years draft and FA period to properly address this teams needs anyway and that`s hoping that there aren`t to many misses along the way.


Its not a focused argument, because we don't know who will be on the board and whether or not we will trade down. As far as who fits the team, well think about who this FO would be more likely to take. There are only 3 backs I'd see this team drafting - Ingram, Williams, Hunter. There is no guarantee Williams or Hunter will be around whenever we get there. If we pass on Ingram, fine, we may be left with no real running threat next year, that is the risk we take. I can see Ingram PLUS a speedy back fitting this team fine for years to come, just Ingram and no speedster to compliment him, then I agree with you.

I'll say it again, I'd be more than happy if someone from the top 10 falls to us, really. I guess I am just not sold on these mid round oliners, I think they are a higher risk than Ingram.

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