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Mark Ingram? Is he No. 15 overall special?

Why Mark Ingram? What is the facination with this young man?

I get that he is the 2009 Heisman Trophy winner. I get that he is is an upstanding man. I get that he played for a great program at Alabama and in perhaps the most competitive league (SEC). But what is it about him that makes all the so-called draft gurus say he's going to be the Dolphins' choice in the first round of the April 28 draft?

Personally, I believe the Dolphins will select from the school of great need. They will select trade down.

Have I said it often enough? This team needs more picks more than ever with a likely coming rookie wage scale making draftees more valuable and cheaper than ever at a time the Dolphins lack a second round pick. So trading down in the first round and getting back a late second-rounder -- as Miami did last year -- or perhaps and early third-rounder, is a huge necessity.

Failing that, however, would the Dolphins use their pick on the 5-10 and 215-pound Ingram?

There's multiple ways of looking at this. From a historical and philosophical perspective is one way and that one suggests Miami should not go with Ingram.

Last season a alone a swing around NFL backfields revealed only two difference-making backs that were picked in the first round. Those were Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson.

Other RBs picked that early were not nearly as impressive. Ryan Mathews, Reggie Bush, Knowshon Moreno, Beanie Wells, Donald Brown, and closer to home, Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams were not difference makers despite being former first-round picks.

And in the meantime, running backs that didn't have that type of draft pedigree did make a splash. LeGarrette Blount was undrafted before doing fine work for Tampa Bay as a rookie. Arian Foster led the league in rushing and his pedigree is he was not drafted and toiled on Houston's practice squad before exploding onto the scene.

The point is effective running backs can be found throughout the draft and sometimes as free agents as well. 

Special running backs, of course, are different.

Special ones like Marshall Faulk or Edgerrin James or Peterson are more than worthy of a high pick. But that leads us to the next perspective we must discuss in breaking down the Ingram possibility: Is he special?

He doesn't have great size as established above. He doesn't have great speed as evidenced by his 4.63 time in the combine and then 4.55 time at his Pro Day. By the way, what was going on with this kid around combine time that he was so unimpressive?

OK, well, maybe he's a monster on the field? He was very, very good in 2009 when he earned the trophy. But he was hurt much of 2010. He is a plugger. He merely plug away, plugs away in 5-, 6-, 4-yard bursts to get his yards. The 85-yard runs? The screen passes where he made two guys miss? The run up the middle where he ran around a linebacker and through the chest of a safety?

I didn't see that.

Don't get me wrong. Ingram is a nice player. He's a good player. I'd love for the Dolphins to have him. But I would hate for them to invest the No. 15 pick in the draft to get him.

Please remember that the draft is about getting value as well as a good player for your pick. Think about that because that idea has worked against the Dolphins previously.

I point you to 2008 when the Dolphins could have picked QB Matt Ryan with the first pick. They picked Jake Long. Long is a wonderful player. He's been a Pro Bowl player each of his first three seasons. But he's a left tackle.

He'll never lead a team to a Super Bowl. He'll never have the ball in his hands when the game is decided. He'll never be a difference-maker. So yes, the Dolphins got a great player with their first overall pick in 2008.

But they would have gotten more value if they had chosen Ryan, who is a very good quarterback and might someday do those things I just mentioned that a difference-making player can provide. Again, value can be just as important as production with the draft.

The 15th overall selection, provided Miami doesn't trade, should bring a special player. That pick should go to a difference-maker.

I believe Ingram will be a good platoon back. But a guy opposing defenses will have to game-plan for throughout the next four or five years?

I might need an eye exam. Because I don't see it.

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I too share the same fears, even after watching Ingram run all over my beloved Gators. I liken the RB position to the C position in basketball. A great RB or C can be a huge boost to your team and is a fundamental building block that all teams could use. The rest of the crop is pretty replaceable...there's always someone you can snag via FA or the draft that will do just fine.

I will say this about Ingram, if any top-tier RB in the draft has all the makings of a star, it's him. I'd be happy with the pick, but knowing this brain trust we're definitely trading down.

If you need an eye exam, the folks at the Center for Excellence in Eye Care at Baptist Medical Arts Building in Miami will fix you up right as rain.

WHAT ABOUT TRADING UP TO GET MALLET AND A 2ND FOR OUR 3RD AND FIRST AND MAYBE ONE OF OUR 7TH PLUS THERE ARE A LOT OF YOUNG FREE AGENTS THIS YEAR THAT WE CAN ADDRESS OUR NEEDS. I KNOW THATS ALOT OF PICKS TO GO BUT IT A SENARIO NO ONE HAS THOUGHT ABOUT.

You're on a roll, Salguero

If Long keeps putting up Pro Bowl seasons, by the time he retires he's going to be in Canton. Dunno how you can say that isn't special. No offense, Mando, but you have a typical fans' fixation on action and not the proper fixation on strategy.

Tricky, no disrespect but that trade scenario is ludicrous. You're suggesting another team would offer Miami a higher first-round pick AND a second-rounder in exchange for Miami's lower first-rounder, their third, and "maybe" a 7th rounder?? Ar you kidding?

hy on Earth would any team do that unless a) their entire front office wanted to be fired or b) they were secretly working for the Dolphins?

Please, a little more reality here. Miami has virtually zero realistic options of moving up. A trade-down is FAR more likely if there's a willing partner.

For the 1st. time since I started posting on Armando`s blogg I agree with him 100% it`s nothing new to those of us that have been arguing this very point for about a month now, it`s that nobody has put it quite so perfectly, kudos Mando. That is without a doubt the finest piece of writing anybody has done regarding Ingram and the Dolphins 15th pick.

Even those that have been beating the Ingram drum would have to agree with the assesment of weighing the over all true value of the player selected at that pick to the team moving foward over the next 4 to 5 plus seasons. I would love to see truely special talents like AJ Green or Julio Jones there for the picking but it`s not very realistic. Even though I`ve been thinking OL, I would have to agree we need a real difference maker regardless of position or side of the ball he plays on, for example let`s say for arguments sake someone like Robert Quinn falls to that spot, do we pass, can we afford to ?

"He is a plugger. He merely plug away, plugs away in 5-, 6-, 4-yard bursts to get his yards. The 85-yard runs? The screen passes where he made two guys miss? The run up the middle where he ran around a linebacker and through the chest of a safety?"

Sounds like Curtis Martin. Guy never looked impressive on any single run, but over the course of the game, he'd steadily get his yards.

TO TRICKY

we all are stupider ( if there is such a word )
for having read your post.

what are you , four years old?

not sure how Ricky wasnt a diff maker after his super strong finish in 09, his phenominal yard per carry average in 08, or his pre retirement league leading rushing yds. But i guess anyone could've done that.

Ingram is a physical specimen. I watched him intently in the combine. Firm, tight buttocks, rippled abs, beautifully defined biceps, and gorgeous doe eyes that seem to stare into infinity.

Stupid Lockout! trading the 15th pick for Kevin Kolb seems like a much better plan than letting Ireland whiff on more draft picks.

In any other year where we had the possibility of drafting someone like ingram in the first round and then the possibility of getting another key skill position player in the 2nd round because of the depth at those positions it would be an awesome first two rounds for us. However, we don't have a 2nd round pick and drafting Ingram at #15 leaves us dead in the water until the 3rd round waiting to see who is going to draft who and who is going to be left for us to take. that's a lot of talent taken off the board before we have a chance to pick again and it would be a suicidal move for Ireland. No way we stay at #15.

TRADE UP TO GET JULIO JONES RESIGN RICKY LET CHAD THROW THE BALL ALL OVER THE FIELD.

Congrats Armando. You're the last one on the reality bandwagon but you got there in the end.

Values for RB's are dropping. Lots of good ones around in the mid to late rounds and even UFA's.

If Odrick comes back and is effective (yes, I know those are big "ifs") then Miami will have what amounts to two high picks anyway. Plus, I do NOT think they overpaid for Marshall in the slightest. He was not the issue with the offensive struggles at all, and getting that type of wideout was necessary to build an offense that (hopefully) will grow more effective.

You gotta pay for the goods sometimes. If they can parlay this year's first into a trade-down that nets two starters, they will have done fine. We'll see.

Take Ingram, we will be set a RB for years to come.

Not a bad rebuttal article against taking Ingram. Two things that don't jive with me though, his comment about Ricky I'd say is way off, and as well, he and others that rave about these late round RB's, well lets please judge them after 5 years and not one season. The Jet's jettisoned Thomas Jones (ahem first round 7th overall pick) after Shonne Green's (3rd rounder) rookie season, yet Green's second season was nothing spectacular and aging LT (ahem, first round pick, 5th overall) looked way better still.

Taking the top rated RB in the draft at 15 is by no means not getting value, its fair, and consider only one Heismann Trophy winning RB was taken later than pick 14.

With all that being said, yeah man, I want the MOST value for all my picks. If AJ Green or Julio Jones or one of the other dynamic players falls to 15, I'm all for taking one of them. But what if they don't? Then what do you do? What is a bigger reach, taking an olineman projected as a late first rounder or the top rated most versatile RB in the draft who the experts say is indeed fair value at 15?

If indeed we do have to pick at 15, lets see who is available at that time before deciding what pick makes most sense. Let's not forget, the Miami Dolphins do not currently have a starting RB on the roster.(hint - RB is a position of need)

WHAT IF HE IS LIKE BARRY SANDRES OR LARRY CZONKA THEN MR ROSS AND MR IRELAND WILL BE SORRY THEY DIDNT TAKED HIM

Yeah, you need an eye exam.

0x80,

Seems we have this debate every other day only to end up agreeing that a playmaker any playmaker that can fill a void while playing at a high level for 4 to 5 plus seasons is what we need and want. By the way since 07 LT has been a broken down player by mid Nov., he posted 84 yds. rudshing in the playoffs against a very suspect Colts run D, wow !!, lets throw him a parade. Thomas Jones put up his usual good # but his avg. was a very middle of the pack 3.4 per.

The point isn`t and never will be if Ingram can play or not, he`s a baller and he will make noise at the next level but he`s not such a diff. making talent that we can`t get equal value in the draft and FA whenever that happens. I was so caught up in someone other than Rob finally agreeing on the whole Ingram thing that I lost sight of Mando`s R.Williams comments and he`s wrong there cause Ricky was without a doubt a special talent anybody who saw him at Tex. new that prior to the 99 draft and by the way Shone Green hit the same rookie wall alot of guys hit in year 2 it`s called complaicency.

Sure, it's easy to say they should've taken Matt Ryan now, after he's had a few years to prove himself in the league. But as many have written, including you, picking a QB so high in the draft can be a very high-risk venture, so there was no way to say at the time that Matt Ryan would've been some no-brainer as a higher-value pick. Maybe Ryan would've floundered facing the same challenges that Henne has faced the past two years.

Trade down, pick up a 2nd, draft the best OL on the board, and draft Kendall Hunter RB OSU in the 2nd rd.

I will not tolerate SLOTH and AVARICE.

Yeah fin4, we are playing a mean game of badminton on this topic, and one of us will have a fine 'I told you so' a year from now.

We aren't really as far off as our debates indicate. Where you say:

"he`s not such a diff. making talent that we can`t get equal value in the draft and FA whenever that happens"

Well the question will be whether or not we can say the same thing about whoever else is left at 15. In the case of Ingram, I will say this, I do not believe there is as versatile a RB in this years draft. The others are speedsters that can't block and not likely to make it on an Ireland/Sparano team. Maybe it was you that sighted the other day that one knock on Ingram is that he is not a great blocker, but its also generally agreed he has the tools and physique to learn that well enough while those other flyweight backs don't. No way to compare Ingrams blocking potential with that of a Taiwan Jones or CJ. One late round back I do like is Hunter..he is a charged up, not real big but more of a fast, quick darting bowling ball build as opposed to these others that have toothpick legs.

Anyway, in the end, we'll see who is there at 15 and what happens. If we didn't have all these debates, it wouldn't be half as interesting!

How long was this team looking for a franchise LT before Long was drafted?? Richmond Webb?? None of the NUMEROUS QB's that suited up between 2000-2008 ever had time to throw. Yes drafting Ryan would have given Miami a better QB but he would not have been nearly as good in Miami. Not without Long blocking.

Mark Ingram is not special when free agency comes after the draft , and RB is one of the most available positions available.
Check this great list of rb's not drafted in First rd
chris johnson
micheal turner
maurice jones drew
arian foster
fred jackson
ray rice
peyton hillis
jamal charles
micheal bush
ahmad bradshaw
brandon jacobs
marion barber
frank gore
deangelo wiliams...........etc etc
Anybody who thinks we should draft Mark Ingram with all the needs we have is plain wrong.
This team needs a QB , more speed at WR , and another greta OLineman to compliment Jake Long.
I say trade down if possible
draft
1.Gabe Carimi
2.Christian Ponder
3.Noel Devine
sign Sidney Rice and re sign Ronnie Brown.
Dont like Ronnie , fine sign one of these guys that will be available
Deangelo Williams
Ahmad Bradshaw
Perre Thomas
Brandon Jacobs
Jerious nOrwood , etc etc there is a plethora of rb's avaialble both in free agency and Draft !


One thing about this endless Matt Ryan debate. At the time, NONE of the pundits were sold that he was 1st round overall material. And taking a QB 1st overall demands a really huge salary. In fact, their second choice wasn't even Ryan, it was Chris Long. They made the right pick. Taking over a broken down demoralized 1-15 team, they got first rate LT for a decade, no way to knock that pick, they could not have afforded risking a bust player there.

Armando,

You gonna play the "hindsight" game and dis my boy Jake?

What's wrong with you?

I'll bet you Brady would be just fine playing behind Berger, Proctor, McQuistan, Garner and Carey.

I know this wasn't the gist of your blog, BUT, C'mon MAN!!!!

digg - all this talk about Ingram is assuming we have to pick at 15. Trading down is not automatic, in fact may not be possible. Its no secret Ireland wants to trade down. The question isn't what late round backs have had success, the question is what do you do at 15 if you have to pick there? Take a player with 15 value or take a player projected as a late rounder thereby getting even less value for the pick? Nobody is saying Ingram is the next LT or Eric Dickerson, just maybe a solid player that does fill a major need.

0x80,

If were talking diff. makers regardless of position what do you do if say Prince Amakamura or Robert Quinn are there along with Ingram, would you go need instead of having a shot at a legit shutdown corner or bookending Wake with a monster like quinn. How about Costanzo dropping there and bookending him with Long for the next 5 plus. It stands to reason you could take K.Hunter in rd.3 and E.Gates in the 4th. addressing 3 positions requiring there range of specific talents, while not leaving yourself dead in the water to reach on the OL you need as well by the way, later were the chances at someone dominant deminish.

It`s proven we can get a R.B. later who can plug away and be what we would want Ingram to be anyway. I feel that Costanzo, Carimi and Pouncy could be diff. makers on the Line, Jones and Green at W.R. Those are the moves I`m looking to make before Ingram and so there is no doubt if a real diff. maker on the Def. side of the ball fell into my lap I would take the entire 15 min. to weigh it.

Long is not a difference maker??? I'm going to go ahead and respectfully disagree.

Kendall Hunter is the RB the Phins should be looking at! They need to find a way to trade down, hopefully draft Carimi in the 1st, Hunter in the 2nd, and Stanzi (maybe) in the 3rd.

0x80 did you get a chance to read the article I put up for you on just how misinformed some of the player rep`s are regarding the labor dispute moving foward.

I also gotta tell you I know Ingram will have 1,000 yard seasons as a Pro no doubt. I just feel we can get one to do it for us as well without having to invest that ever so precious 15th selection. Your right by the way it makes for watching there careers moving foward alot more interesting.

Dang, Armando, there you go again. There is no logical way to say that Matt Ryan would have been as effective in Miami as he has been in Atlanta. In fact, Henning would have DESTROYED him, just as he has most every QB who's played under his system, even Chad Pennington (check out the tape of the 2008 playoff game against the Ravens, and you'll see the Henning effect in full bloom.)

Everybody is focusing on the offense and with good reason.

Still, I'd take a shutdown corner over Ingram at 15 in a heatbeat.

Also I'd try to land a Linebacker like Sturdivant-N. Car., Greg Jones-MSU, or Kelvin Sheppard-LSU, in a later round.

Hopeful Phins Fan

Long is a Difference maker at his position, every position has them not just Q.B. if you don`t believe me let`s bench him and put last years 3rd rd pick Jerry out there, hey he played Tackle in College. I guarantee you our sacks double and that`s being conservative, if that isn`t making a diff. then you tell me what is !!

fin4,

I don't see Carmimi or Pouncy being a better pick at 15 than Ingram, Costanzo much closer in value, but not enough for me to bite. The others you mentioned for sure I'd be all for it, but its a prayer any of them would drop that far. Yes, its possible, every draft players drop further than imagined. It's not even a lock Ingram will be there at 15.

Let's keep in mind, just because we have a 3rd round pick doesn't mean we will be able to get Hunter. That is no given, there are 31 other teams out there that see the very same thing we do. I'm not convinced any of these late round backs can be an every down back in the NFL anyway, but of all of them I do like Hunter the most.

Yes I did read that article, was worth putting up. Too many cooks in the kitchen and nobody knows whats in the soup.

odin, hows it go bro !!!

THE DOLPHINS SHOULD TRADE DOWN, PICK UP A SECOND ROUNDER, AND THEN DRAFT AN OL LATE IN THE FIRST ROUND.

everyone needs to go watch highlights of this kid cus he can run hes run away from corners saftys backers, he plays faster than his 40 time. look at emmit smith leading rusher of the nfl had a terrible 40 nd he ran away from ppl too. i kno ireland and tony are smart guys and i bet they will take Mr.Ingram at that 15th slot

0x80,

It`s just a hypothetical I threw your way to see if we could at least agree on that, I can`t honestly make an argument about the value of those OL at 15, you got me there, Quinn could fall though and it would be interesting also if Prince A. gets past Dallas cause they go OL given the needs of the teams hat follow anything is possible, still remember Sapp falling to 12 and R.Lewis to 26 ! dare to dream !!!

Armando,

If unable to trade out of the #15 position, the problem is there arent any huge difference maker type players available period. If unable to trade back Ingram does make the most sense.

Even if we are able to trade back it's highly doubtful it would be for no more than an extra 3rd rd pick. Because there are no "difference maker" types available worthy of another team giving up thier 2nd rd pick to get.

Trade back scenario(extra 3rd rd'er) gives us a choice of 2 rb's(LeShoure/Ryan Williams), wr(Torrey Smith, fast but hasnt proven to be huge difference maker in college). Then there's Mike Pouncey or Aldon Smith.

Those are the 1st rd scenarios trading back. We could also take Notre Dame TE Kyle Rudolph 1st rd, but he's not projected a huge difference maker either. Ingram's the official no-brainer if stuck at picking #15. He's the top rated rb in the 2011 draft.

I bet a lot of you guys are pretty tubby. Anyone here morbidly obese with b.o. to match?

odinseye,

Colorado's Jimmy Smith is the 3rd best corner of this draft. He ran a 4.38 40yd dash to boot. He's a problem child though. He tested positive for drugs and has been arrested twice during his career at Colorado.

If not for his problem child ways he would be a definite 2011 1st rd selection. Selecting him 1st rd now takes huge bongo balls. After him there's no other corner worthy of 1st rd status. Peterson and Akumaru will be long gone.

fin4life,

I think you misunderstood hopeful.

He was diagreeing with Armando, saying Long IS a difference maker.

Armando often "stretches" things (to be polite)to beter make his point.

The trade down and pick up a 2nd rd'er posts are funny. No one's giving up a 2nd rd'er for the #15 position unless "a difference maker" falls from the top 10.

If this happens we need to strongly consider using the #15 ourselves instead of trading out. LOL...................

Plus Ricky had two super years in 2002 and 2003. The 2002 season was at the time the 8th highest total in NFL history. That is making a difference?

Last year we traded down from the #13 position because the Chargers badly wanted Ryan whatver. If anything, the team sitting in 2011's #13 position has a much better chance of grabbing a 2nd rd'er for trading back than we do.

Im sure many here haven considered possibility teams several places ahead of us might be looking to trade back and spring an extra 2nd too.

Even if we pick at 15, and Ingram is there, I would still be surprised if Ireland picked him. He seems to be bent on doing the unpredictable. For better or worse, he needs to feel like he outsmarted everyone, at the risk of outsmarting himself.

odin,

Thax Laddy aye, a fine single malt she was, a wee bit tinggy though, shaemus brewed itimself ehhh!

DB, that was a #12 we traded out of last year. Last year's 12 was far more valuable than this years 15. Throw in the cba mess and a trade down option is just not as automatic as some seem to think.

DB,

I agree. I was just responding to someone mentioning the Prince falling.

I don't think CB is a real big NEED for us, but having two good ones sure didn't hurt the wets.

I would jump all over Peterson or Prince at 15 as would probably most.

Smith? I got some cuhona's, but they ain't THAT big-LOL.

Ingram Shinngram...RB's are a dime a dozen in the NFL...we need a Franchise QB..period!

We need to USE the darn number 15 pick for once...forget all that trade your pick stuff. Let's see those noots Ireland

I actually wouldnt be upset if we traded back and gained an extra rd'er.

Then used the late 1st rd pick to get Mike Pouncey. Then used our two 3rd rd picks to get 2 of these 3 players: Titus Young/Jernel Jernigan and Kendall Hunter.

Like the scenario DB 6:32

cowkilla,

Because of the cocky attitude and positvive drug test concerns. Some have Ryan Mallett falling as far as 3rd rd. If we traded back into the mid 20's or further, he could be an intriguing possibility in rd 1 if Ireland has the kahunas! LOL.................

cowkilla,

Sorry to say, if we use the #15 pick we're looking at Ingram again unless a "difference maker" falls from the top 10.

DB,

As you probably already know, I'm in love with Hunter. I didn't really look at him that close until I heard you start mentioning him awhile back.

Now Jernigan too. I got a feeling about these two.

The feeling is they'll both be just out of our reach. In which case of course Ireland will outsmart everyone by taking another couple of Jerry's and Amaya's.

I really shouldn't say that because I actually have a lot of confidence in those two.........just not Ireland!

fin4life,

I've heard a lot of people knocking Pouncey.

I don't really know what the deal is or why he's getting knocked so much.

What's your take?

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