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Mark Ingram? Is he No. 15 overall special?

Why Mark Ingram? What is the facination with this young man?

I get that he is the 2009 Heisman Trophy winner. I get that he is is an upstanding man. I get that he played for a great program at Alabama and in perhaps the most competitive league (SEC). But what is it about him that makes all the so-called draft gurus say he's going to be the Dolphins' choice in the first round of the April 28 draft?

Personally, I believe the Dolphins will select from the school of great need. They will select trade down.

Have I said it often enough? This team needs more picks more than ever with a likely coming rookie wage scale making draftees more valuable and cheaper than ever at a time the Dolphins lack a second round pick. So trading down in the first round and getting back a late second-rounder -- as Miami did last year -- or perhaps and early third-rounder, is a huge necessity.

Failing that, however, would the Dolphins use their pick on the 5-10 and 215-pound Ingram?

There's multiple ways of looking at this. From a historical and philosophical perspective is one way and that one suggests Miami should not go with Ingram.

Last season a alone a swing around NFL backfields revealed only two difference-making backs that were picked in the first round. Those were Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson.

Other RBs picked that early were not nearly as impressive. Ryan Mathews, Reggie Bush, Knowshon Moreno, Beanie Wells, Donald Brown, and closer to home, Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams were not difference makers despite being former first-round picks.

And in the meantime, running backs that didn't have that type of draft pedigree did make a splash. LeGarrette Blount was undrafted before doing fine work for Tampa Bay as a rookie. Arian Foster led the league in rushing and his pedigree is he was not drafted and toiled on Houston's practice squad before exploding onto the scene.

The point is effective running backs can be found throughout the draft and sometimes as free agents as well. 

Special running backs, of course, are different.

Special ones like Marshall Faulk or Edgerrin James or Peterson are more than worthy of a high pick. But that leads us to the next perspective we must discuss in breaking down the Ingram possibility: Is he special?

He doesn't have great size as established above. He doesn't have great speed as evidenced by his 4.63 time in the combine and then 4.55 time at his Pro Day. By the way, what was going on with this kid around combine time that he was so unimpressive?

OK, well, maybe he's a monster on the field? He was very, very good in 2009 when he earned the trophy. But he was hurt much of 2010. He is a plugger. He merely plug away, plugs away in 5-, 6-, 4-yard bursts to get his yards. The 85-yard runs? The screen passes where he made two guys miss? The run up the middle where he ran around a linebacker and through the chest of a safety?

I didn't see that.

Don't get me wrong. Ingram is a nice player. He's a good player. I'd love for the Dolphins to have him. But I would hate for them to invest the No. 15 pick in the draft to get him.

Please remember that the draft is about getting value as well as a good player for your pick. Think about that because that idea has worked against the Dolphins previously.

I point you to 2008 when the Dolphins could have picked QB Matt Ryan with the first pick. They picked Jake Long. Long is a wonderful player. He's been a Pro Bowl player each of his first three seasons. But he's a left tackle.

He'll never lead a team to a Super Bowl. He'll never have the ball in his hands when the game is decided. He'll never be a difference-maker. So yes, the Dolphins got a great player with their first overall pick in 2008.

But they would have gotten more value if they had chosen Ryan, who is a very good quarterback and might someday do those things I just mentioned that a difference-making player can provide. Again, value can be just as important as production with the draft.

The 15th overall selection, provided Miami doesn't trade, should bring a special player. That pick should go to a difference-maker.

I believe Ingram will be a good platoon back. But a guy opposing defenses will have to game-plan for throughout the next four or five years?

I might need an eye exam. Because I don't see it.

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LOVE IS NOT EASY TO COME BY .....A WOMAN'S HAIR IS THE KEY THEN HER MOSE THEN HER LIPS .......

THEN HER NOSE

THE HERALD HAS VERY GOOD ARTICLE ABOUT THE QB'S WHO THE DOLPHINS HAVE BOOKED PRIVATE WORKOUT FOR THEM BY BARRY JACKSON.........

RICK STANZI
COLIN KAEPERNICK
CAM NEWTON
BLAIN GABBER
RAYN MALLET
CHRISTIAN PONDER
THE DOLPHINS HAVE NOT ASKED A PRIVATE WORKOUT FOR JACK LOCKER.


THE DOLPHINS HAVE STUDIED MARK INGRAM AT LENGTH BUT WANT TO SEE MORE,THE PHONED HIM LAST WEEK...THE FINS ALSO ARE IMPRESSED WITH RAYN WILLIAMS WHO THEY HAVE A WORKOUT W/HIM MARCH 30.

TONY SPARANO AND JEFF IRELAND WILL BE THERE

ALSO THERE FINGER NALES MUST BE CLEAN NOT WITH DIRT AND OILY.....AND THERE EARS CLEAN. AND NEAT

Thanks for the update Aloco. I'm glad somebody here takes the time.

If the Braintrust have not asked a private workout for Jack Locker, then bet yo sweet P's that's exactly who Jeffy's REALLY interested in.

That Jeffy, he's so smart throwing everybody off his scent like that.

Speaking of which Aloco, you smell what I'm steppin in????

ALSO THERE FINGER NALES MUST BE CLEAN NOT WITH DIRT AND OILY.....AND THERE EARS CLEAN. AND NEAT

Posted by: ALoco | March 20, 2011 at 12:32 AM


WTF?

This had me rolling Aloco, so it's all good Bro!

GO READ BARRY JACKSON ARTICLE,IT'S VERY TELLING ODIN .

I meant:

THANKS Bro!

THAT WAS THE FAKE ALOCO WHO YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO ALL DAY FROM 12;00 TO 11;30 PM

GO READ BARRY JACKSON ARTICLE,IT'S VERY TELLING ODIN .

Posted by: ALoco | March 20, 2011 at 12:35 AM


For some reason Aloco when you write to me like that, I picture myself as the Karate Kid and you're that little old Chinese guy.

Wax ON!

Wax OFF!

THAT WAS THE FAKE ALOCO WHO YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO ALL DAY FROM 12;00 TO 11;30 PM

Posted by: ALoco | March 20, 2011 at 12:38 AM


Wow!!!!

Maybe it WAS that little old Chinese guy from Karate Kid!!!!!

Whats up this early morning Finland??

Aloco,

You're definitely funnier when I'm "smokin"!

Of course I ONLY smoke for religious and medicinal purposes.............A-Hem!

Sooooooooooooo, ANYWAYS-ROTFLMAO!!!!

THAT WAS THE FAKE ALOCO WHO YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO ALL DAY FROM 12;00 TO 11;30 PM

Posted by: ALoco | March 20, 2011 at 12:38 AM

A Fake Lil Aloco??????? Nooooooooooo, WTF.Com...

Odin, What city will you be invading once our mighty Air-brathers start out at 1 and 5????(0 and 6 in a "Scab shorten" Season)????

THE FAKE ALOCO IS RIGHT ABOUT THE LADYS FINGER NALES THOUGH. IT IS VERY DISGUSTENG WHEN THEY HAVE THEM ALL DIRTY AND GRESY. ALSO SOME HAVE MUSTASHES ((YUCK)))

Cuban,

Findland?

The weather up here right now feels almost like Florida!

Then again I'm pretty buzzed up!

Trying to teach a Brunette how to play Guitar. She FINALLY got "un-mad enough at me to come over!

Rock on Odin..........................................

They'd be silly not to look at Jake Locker

1-5?

Villages hell!!!!

1-5?

Oh, I'd have a lot bigger plans than that!

I'd tell you about them, but ah, I don't want to tip off the FBI or HomeLand Security!

1-5?

Man - O - Man

You think that Mayan Calenders scary? I'd make it come true!

I have always wondered, do you have to bathe everyday? With soap? Hmm..

There's a bunch of QB's in this draft that supposedly are NFL material. If so, there must be one or two that are really good and that can help any Team immediately(see Marino). Who are they?

Oscar,

Dude, I always wondered about that TOO!

Seriously man, I don't understand it, but, after years and years of trial and error, Dude, check it out man, you won't believe it!

THE CHICKS DIG IT!!!!

Try it sometime, Man, I'm telling you, it really, really works!!!!

Ha!

That's a trick question for SURE!

I'd try drafting the next Marino and I'd end up with the next Mallet.......ah, Leaf! Yeah, I meant Leaf!

Whatever! I don't git NO respect!

Odin Dangerfield!!!!

Not that wonderlic matters much but two people I think are going to be good leaders
Christian Ponder 2nd rd
Greg McElroy 5th rd

Tyrod Taylor 5th rd

Also Dalton 4th and Stanzi 4th

odin,
There must be somebody in the Dolphins FO that should know what they are doing. Are they?

I read somewhere that the best bath is with very hot water while you hit yourself with birch branches. Of course, a little difficult to do in urban areas.

Not that wonderlic matters much but two people I think are going to be good leaders
Christian Ponder 2nd rd
Greg McElroy 5th rd

Posted by: beerphin | March 20, 2011 at 02:06 AM

Translation: These two are dumerin stumps!


odin,
There must be somebody in the Dolphins FO that should know what they are doing. Are they?

Posted by: oscar canosa | March 20, 2011 at 02:10 AM

Are they?

Are they what?

Are they knowing what they're doing?

Christ I dunno! I don't even know if I should've used an apostrophe-re in my last sentence!

You shoulda seen the post before I posted it! The spell check didn't even know what to do with it!

No respect I tell ya!!!!

I would love to see a gorilla taking a bubble bath.

Wouldn't you?

watch McElroy interview

I have no interest in that whatsoever. It is boring an pointless. Sorry.


CROWDER WILL BE ONE OF THE FIRST 3 PLAYERS CUT IN A WEEK....................


You asking to trade down is as stupid as taking a RB at 15. You need a dance partner. Why the heck you think that other teams will give up their only currency in the offseason to move up to 15?

You are giving a cop-out answer Mando. Start naming players.

You cannot sit there and say "we will trade down". You have to be ready to pick.

BTW, didn't you write something about not liking Ingram earlier in the offseason? Get some new material.

I'm seeing many bloggers suggest its foolish and stupid to take a RB in the first round. Let's see what GM's across the league think about taking a RB in the first round. Let's also stick to current history, since everyone says its a 'passing league' now, and look at the last 3 drafts:

2010
#9 CJ Spiller - Buffalo
#12 Ryan Mathews - San Diego (in a trade up with Miami to pick a RB here)
#30 Jahvid Best - Detroit

2009
#12 Knowshon Moreno - Denver
#27 Donald Brown - Indianapolis
#31 Chris Wells - Arizona

2008
#4 Darren McFadden - Oakland
#13 Jonathan Stewart - Carolina
#22 Felix Jones - Dallas
#23 Rashard Mendenhall - Pittsburgh
#24 Chris Johnson - Tennesee

We can see in the last three years, at least 3 RB's were taken in the first round. A total of 5 RBs were taken earlier than 15. Ten different GM's, who get paid big bucks to spend their lives analyzing the draft, did not think it was stupid or foolish to draft an RB in the first round.

Yet, Armando and so many bloggers seem to think drafting the highest rated most versatile RB in the draft at #15 is not a good value? You are trying to build the team of the future with no every down RB on the roster and would pass up the best RB in the draft, a position of need, and suggesting to reach for a later round oliner? That is value? That is a difference maker? That is logical? Just wondering........

For clarity, my above posts assumes nobody from the top 10 falls to 15...

0x80,

How many of those RB's where/are actual difference makers, unless paired with a difference making QB?

UT, well nobody is saying the RB will win the SB for you. You do need a difference making QB too. A solid, everydown RB is one more piece to the puzzle. I'm saying take the best pieces you can get while you can get them. History has shown that rarely does a difference making QB make that much of a difference without a difference making running game too.

As pointed out by other bloggers, its no surprise that Brees and Peyton had off years when their running games collapsed due to injuries. Speaking of recent history in this 'passing league', Brees and Peyton won SB's when they had top notch running games.

HONEY IS BEE VOMIT

Really this argument is focused on exactly who do you take at 15 if none of the top 10 fall? I just can't see taking an oliner over Ingram at 15. If there is a serious defensive guy there that can potentially be a high impact starter from day one, I'm for that too. Let's make the pick count by taking someone who can start day one and improve the team right from the start.

As far as taking a RB in the later rounds, I just don't see any of them being an every down back. If they want to take one and go with Ronnie another season, that might be an option, I just think its time to move on at the RB position.

I HAVE A FRIEND AT WORK WHO IS FROM LOISEANA AND HE TOLD ME ((BATON ROGE)) IS FRENCH WORDS TYHAT MEAN RED STICK. ISNT THAT FUNNY! ALSO HE TOLD ME THAT LOISEANA WAS FRANCE BEFORE IT WAS AMERICA BUT I NEVER HEARD OF THAT

Aloco, ever here of the French Quarter or Mardi Gras (Fat Tuesday in French)?

0x80 & odin,

Your argument for not using the 06 Colts couldn`t be anymore of base, there actually a perfect example.

1) Peyton Manning on Thanksgiving day (week 11) that season threw 6 T.D. passes to give him 39 for the season, putting him within 10 of breaking the record by week 11 !!! but more importantly they were on pace to set records for scoring. It was at that point in the season that Def. Cor. went into a base 6 D.B. set when playing the Colts in an attempt to slow down the game. If your looking at 4 down linemen and 1 L.B. in the game with everybody else 5 to 15 tards of the line you`d run it to, it`s how Addai padded his stats in the last 6 games, while Manning would only throw the needed 10 T.D.`s for the record. The pass set the tone for how D`s would play the Colts allowing the run to flourish.

2) I noticed nobody even touched the next team I gave as an example the 07 Patriots, here is were you could have stated your case for the need of a serviceable R.B. When they were faced with a superior D-Line in the S.B. and absolutly could have used the run game to slow down th pass rush forcing the Giants to contain and respect running lanes they had no answer in super sonic 1st. round bust L.Maroney. By the way using the Pack as an example was both to easy and obvious.

3) I am not sure if either of you read my post completely because you would have taken note of the fact that I state very clearly that we need to stretch the field vertically with some consistency to back the L.B. and Safties up, creating room to run, by the post Derek4Dolphins put up he obviously got were I was coming from. By the way if memory serves Addai and Maroney were both selected after pick 20 of round 1, point being if we trade down and Ingram fell to that spot as well it would change my thinking on picking him 180 degrees, in terms of value.

0x80 YES I HEARD OF THEM THEY ARE IN NEW ORLENS BUT IT WAS REALLY IN FRANCE ONE TIME? I DONT BELEVE THAT

A couple months ago, I was against drafting a RB in the first round, as I begged for an Oline priority. I still say that unflattering lineman pick will accomplish more for this team than any other position. Then, I relented, realizing we were in need...the R&R express was ending.

Last year we shuffled our oline to the point of dizziness. It effected our entire offense, and throw in senile Henning, a recipe for discontent soon followed.

I cannot stress my post further, but to say if our oline has a weak link:

No QB is going to be successful. He will be forced to check down, throw prematurly, get conconsions...

No RB is going anywhere past a 1000 yards, much less a steller 2,000 yard season. Not Ingram, not anybody.

No WR is going to light up Monday morning Sport Center, with 10 catches for 200 yards and 2 TD'S. Not when the QB (regardless who that might be) is running for his life or laying on his back.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Such is the case with any team.

I wish we had the patriots picks, and the CBA was resolved. One could actually experiment with that platter, but the phins aren't afforded that luxery.

When you get down to the nitty-gritty, and pick our most advantageous player in the first round, I'd pick Jake Long all over again.

Since we already have him, pick another like him, and create a chain-link-fence that allows whatever weapons we field to get that extra couple seconds for the play to develope.

You can design the craftest of X/O plays, but it will never pan for you, if the weakest link is your Oline and perpetually attacked by the opposing D-coordinator.

I can rattle off a dozon teams that won the superbowl with less than extrodinary QB, WR, RB, but name me one team that won the superbowl with an inferior Oline...

If we don't pick Ingram at #15, I pray we pick the best Olineman.

fin4life,

I read your entire post. I basically agreed with ALMOST all of it.

The exception being how you SEEMED to be down playing Addai's role in 06.

If you read my entire post, I said I wasn't being argumentative. Just pointing out that Addai played a more integral part in the offense, more than what I think you're giving him credit for.

You can say it was "padding" if you want, but that 1,081 yards didn't come in just the last 6 weeks of the season.

He wasn't even the starter. He was coming off the bench. When they called his number he produced, week in and week out.

So I'm not arguing your point. Especially your point about us needing to be able to get vertical.

I'm just saying Addai was a big contributor and "coincidentally" Peyton had arguably his best season ever.

Addai averaged 5.1 yards a carry the first 7 weeks and had a 4.8 on the season in 06.

Did a pretty decent job catching the ball out of the backfield for a rookie as well.

GulfD,

Great points in your last post, one only need remember the 07 Pats overmatched at the Line in the S.B. by the Giants. I want to go OL and WR in the draft RB late and thru FA when it gets going. I also believe that when we fix the Line we will need to start to hurt teams crowding the Line of Scrimmage by going long more consistently, we need a real burner like M.Wallace in Pitt. for this, he was 3rd. rounder by the way. Although if we trade down and Ingram is still sitting there between 20 and 30 I would think it thru, there are also FA alternatives to the OL, like you say this CBA mess hurts like hell.

fin4@ 1:56PM, nice thorough rebuttal. A couple of things though.

For one, you are talking about two teams with the very best QB's in a decade. Guaranteed HOF'ers, not to mention one team with the hands down best coach since Shula. Having a QB at that level, will skew the stats a little, and of course we don't and won't have that QB anytime soon. And as well we have the least competent coach in the NFL.

Keep in mind, I am assuming no trade down, I am going with what we know as of today, we are picking at 15. Now it seems like you are saying if we were picking at #25 you'd be ok with Ingram there. In the end, would it really matter if we took him at 15 or 25? It's not that big of a stretch if you are filling a key need, it's not like picking a 2nd rounder at 15.

The other thing I really fail to see, per my post @ 11:23am listing the RBs selected in the last few 1st rounds, how is Ingram at 15 not reasonable value? At 5 I can see not, maybe at 10 I can see not, but at 15, that is well within the 'fair value' zone for the top rated RB in the draft when compared to the last few recent drafts, verifiable by the actions of GM's across the league.

Coming full circle from where we were a few days ago, lets wait and see who is available at 15 and then make the debate whether or not we used that pick wisely, whether we got the most value for it, whether we got a player that can be a starter and make an impact from day one. One thing I can not see is how one of those oliners would be a better value or have more of an impact than Ingram at 15.

odin,

I am not arguing his contribution but having so few people at the line helped when it wasn`t a zone early in the year it was 6 D.B. later to close out. Remember the Colts weren`t even that cute about it either it was either a 3 rec. set (R.Wayne, M.Harrison and A.Gonzalez in slot) with D.Clarck at T.E. or 2 rec. (Wayne, Harrison) and 2 T.E. (Clarck, Pollard) and daring you to beat Manning making the proper read with his superior talent. The run game was secondary, alot of times it was the delayed hand off due to the playfakes making it go, odin come on you make it sound as if you don`t remember the way they threw it all over the place that year

0x80,

If we had our 2nd. rounder I would keep my yap shut on drafting Ingram at 15, my point is without a 2nd rounder which we won`t net in a trade anyway more than likely a 3rd. if we go that route, then your painted in a corner about what to do in round three and beyond.

Gulf, I think most of us would agree on your points about the oline. Consider this though, we have Nate Garner coming back, and it isn't unreasonable to think John Jerry will be better in his second year. Sure he still has to prove it, but I'm not ready to use the bust word him based on only his first season. Carey may have had an off year, but again, maybe the injury was part of the problem and he'll come back in better shape and revert back to form. My point here is that maybe our oline will be in better shape than most people realize. Maybe it needs help, but maybe it isn't exactly the complete train wreck some are making it out to be.

fin4, lets make an appointment for the eve of Apr 28 to see whether we think they used the 15 to get the player most likely to make the best impact from day one.

I'll say flat out I'm against trading a 15 for a late 1 and a 3. Bite the bullet and take the very best player you can get.

If someone really wants our 15, make them pay for it, lets not run the show like a discount department store, blue light special.

0x80,

I couldn`t agree more with your sentiment about staying put at 15 and for the record if we do take Ingram let`s hope we dump some salaries (C.Crowder) making room for somebody like Blaylock in FA, while gragging E.Gates and anybody else we can add to the mix with speed at W.R. and T.E. If it played out along those lines I can`t say I`d be terribly disapointed.

Watch Ingram get picked at 14 and make this all a moot debate!

fin4life,

I didn't forget. I loved hating it or I hated loving it, however that saying goes. It was awesome just watching Manning operate!

You know what else I didn't forget? I didn't forget how Manning seemed to know EXACTLY when to audible to that delayed hand off!

Manning was the pre snap King! If Addai wasn't the threat he was, Manning wouldn't have had that in the arsenal. In which case, the D can solely concentrate on Manning and the pass.

My whole point is, thanks to Addai, Manning was able to play both ends against the middle. That WAS an integral part of HIS offense.

I'm not saying Manning couldn't/didn't throw into coverage, because he did. Successfully, over and over again. Still, when defenses backed off into nickles and dimes, he would audible to the run in a heartbeat and Addai produced. One hand washed the other.

The added dimension of Addai helped Manning's passing attack immeasurably that year.

Note to 0x80 on my 3:02 gragging is poster speak for grabbing, lol

FINALLY! A topic after my own heart!!! LOL

Afternoon all.

Seems we have been debating this topic for a while now even if the topic content was something else (Sorry Mando). This is because people are very galvanized either way on Ingram/RB in the 1st and are passionate about how to fix our Fins.

As I read through some of the latest posts it came to me as to why I feel Ingram at 15 should be an absolute "NO GO".

Ingram happens to be at the top of every list out there that I have seen (except probably a few draftnik ones).

The thing about Ingram is that although he is at the top of the RB list what does he have stats wise that scream he is a super gifted, special type player that deserves to be drafted as the 15th best overall football player in the entire country?

His Size? No way! He is smallish.

His Speed? Uh, uh... he is slow by any standard.

His Hands? He makes catches but is not a natural and fights the ball in.

His Blocking ability? He sticks his head in there but is smallish and probably would get used by the Cam Wakes of the world.

So Ingram is at the top of the RB as he has decently high marks in many of the RB categories. For me it seems to indict the field instead of make Ingram special.

Do the bloggers that are for the Ingram pick look at him as a #15 "Special" type player? Or is it more, "Oh, we could use a RB and this guy is at the top of pre-draft lists?"

For what it's worth 0x80, I would take a later #1 and 3 in a nano second in this draft than using the 15th.

Cheers,

odin,

I think youv`e just posted my exact sentiments all along, halleluya !!! doing major back flips!!! one hand definetly washes the other, it`s why I`m surer we won`t have a consistent run game until we get our hands on a burner at the outside opposite Marshall, then offcourse all we need is someone to throw them the ball, while we keep peeling the onoin, lol

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