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Mark Ingram? Is he No. 15 overall special?

Why Mark Ingram? What is the facination with this young man?

I get that he is the 2009 Heisman Trophy winner. I get that he is is an upstanding man. I get that he played for a great program at Alabama and in perhaps the most competitive league (SEC). But what is it about him that makes all the so-called draft gurus say he's going to be the Dolphins' choice in the first round of the April 28 draft?

Personally, I believe the Dolphins will select from the school of great need. They will select trade down.

Have I said it often enough? This team needs more picks more than ever with a likely coming rookie wage scale making draftees more valuable and cheaper than ever at a time the Dolphins lack a second round pick. So trading down in the first round and getting back a late second-rounder -- as Miami did last year -- or perhaps and early third-rounder, is a huge necessity.

Failing that, however, would the Dolphins use their pick on the 5-10 and 215-pound Ingram?

There's multiple ways of looking at this. From a historical and philosophical perspective is one way and that one suggests Miami should not go with Ingram.

Last season a alone a swing around NFL backfields revealed only two difference-making backs that were picked in the first round. Those were Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson.

Other RBs picked that early were not nearly as impressive. Ryan Mathews, Reggie Bush, Knowshon Moreno, Beanie Wells, Donald Brown, and closer to home, Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams were not difference makers despite being former first-round picks.

And in the meantime, running backs that didn't have that type of draft pedigree did make a splash. LeGarrette Blount was undrafted before doing fine work for Tampa Bay as a rookie. Arian Foster led the league in rushing and his pedigree is he was not drafted and toiled on Houston's practice squad before exploding onto the scene.

The point is effective running backs can be found throughout the draft and sometimes as free agents as well. 

Special running backs, of course, are different.

Special ones like Marshall Faulk or Edgerrin James or Peterson are more than worthy of a high pick. But that leads us to the next perspective we must discuss in breaking down the Ingram possibility: Is he special?

He doesn't have great size as established above. He doesn't have great speed as evidenced by his 4.63 time in the combine and then 4.55 time at his Pro Day. By the way, what was going on with this kid around combine time that he was so unimpressive?

OK, well, maybe he's a monster on the field? He was very, very good in 2009 when he earned the trophy. But he was hurt much of 2010. He is a plugger. He merely plug away, plugs away in 5-, 6-, 4-yard bursts to get his yards. The 85-yard runs? The screen passes where he made two guys miss? The run up the middle where he ran around a linebacker and through the chest of a safety?

I didn't see that.

Don't get me wrong. Ingram is a nice player. He's a good player. I'd love for the Dolphins to have him. But I would hate for them to invest the No. 15 pick in the draft to get him.

Please remember that the draft is about getting value as well as a good player for your pick. Think about that because that idea has worked against the Dolphins previously.

I point you to 2008 when the Dolphins could have picked QB Matt Ryan with the first pick. They picked Jake Long. Long is a wonderful player. He's been a Pro Bowl player each of his first three seasons. But he's a left tackle.

He'll never lead a team to a Super Bowl. He'll never have the ball in his hands when the game is decided. He'll never be a difference-maker. So yes, the Dolphins got a great player with their first overall pick in 2008.

But they would have gotten more value if they had chosen Ryan, who is a very good quarterback and might someday do those things I just mentioned that a difference-making player can provide. Again, value can be just as important as production with the draft.

The 15th overall selection, provided Miami doesn't trade, should bring a special player. That pick should go to a difference-maker.

I believe Ingram will be a good platoon back. But a guy opposing defenses will have to game-plan for throughout the next four or five years?

I might need an eye exam. Because I don't see it.

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0x80,

If Ingram goes earlier than 15 it will be to the R.B. needy Skins at 10, if he gets past them he`s ours the Rams at 14 already have Jackson and are going to break our close but no cigar hearts by taking Julio Jones

fin4life,

Backflips!?!?

Is it OK if I just do a jumping jack or two?

I'm getting a little old for backflips!

I totally agrre! We need that speed receiver!

With a speed guy drawing off the safeties, I think I could complete 60% throwing to Marshall and Bess!

PS: And I was a terrible Quarterback!

Isn't the problem with having a speed WR or seam stretching TE going to be muted by Henne's lack of accuracy down field?

Cheers,

@ Rob,

If we traded down into the last 7 picks of round 1, Ingram becomes more appealing if all the best available OL are of the board which they probably would be with the exception of Sherrod who seems to be another slow footed plow ahead type but all of that is based on getting somebody to cough up there 2nd. and I don`t see it. The only trade scenario I see would be S.D. leap frogging N.E. for Watt or Cerrigan and I don`t see them parting with a 2 to move up 3 spots. Maybe the D-Line starved Broncos but that would realistically mean moving out of round 1 alrogether, I`ll give it to 0x80 on that one, let`s not trade for the sake of trading to blue light the team to hell.

I`ve been saying it since yesterday, unless we can back the L.B. and Safties off the Line it won`t matter who`s running it, I`ve only seen one guy beat 9 in the box in my life time and that was Barry Sanders and if we were talking along those once in a life time talents the argument of him reaching pick 15 would be mute anyway. Your thoughts ?

The gangs all here!

Wassup odin, fin4life, 0x80!

Lil Fins rap on a Sunday afternoon?

Cheers,

Rob,

Muted? That's a strong word.

We need the speed guy, the seasm guy AND AT LEAST one solid offensive lineman before ANY Quarterback available will look any good here.

That's the cunundrum in a nut shell. Do you take a chance with one of the high pick QB's this year. Or, do you try and fill some of these other big needs.

Considering the CBA/FA period and the missing 2nd rounder, it doesn't look like we'll be able to do both.

fin4life,

I believe, in this draft, gaining an extra third and flopping places with someone later in round 1 would work out fine. Maybe they have to give us something in the 2012 draft (to start thinking like the Pats) to flesh out the trade would be great.

I don't consider a late 1 + 3 and change in 2012 a blue light special deal at all.

I feel a Super Big Man like NT Phil Taylor from Baylor OR a speedy WR like Torrey Smith would serve us much better than Ingram even later in round one.

You see my deal is I am not at all sold on the "Next Emmitt Smith" as the arguement for drafting Ingram. The guy is coming of injury so he is not really this proven 3 down banger back either... I can't fathom how people are selling him like that??

Lastly, maybe things will be different with Daboll but we NEVER RAN THE HOT HAND at RB. I remember thinking hell yeah when Ronnie Borwn bolted for like a 12 yard score vs the vaunted Ravens DEF on I believe the first drive of the day vs them. I was like oh yeah, Ronnie's gonna have a day. They gave him next to no carries in the second half and he was seldom used.

Cheers,

What`s up Rob, How`s it go !

odin, I was excagerating a bit on thr back flips, more like tears of absolute joy gasms !! lol !!!

@ Rob,

I think you know I don`t see Ingram as the next Emmit by any stretch but if it came down to value then at picks 25 to 32 I would consider because then the argument get`s flipped and you would have to cosider Jernigan if he were there in the 3rd. or E.Gates later, there is really no wrong way to go just staying the course of a blue print once you make up your mind.

odin,

I tends to disagree with the every skill position needs to be filled to give ANY QB a chance theory.

Look at Manning throwing to the then undiscovered rook Pirre Garcon and Autin Collie. Then when Collie was concussed he did it with Blair White. They just keep plugging players in and their OFF is still deadly...because of Peyton, making reads and throwing catchable balls.

Making reads and throwing c atchable balls seems too challenging for Henne.

Because of the seasoning it takes to groom a QB I hope they do end up with one of the top 5-6 in this draft. Hopefully either a Mallet, Kaepernick or Ponder slip to a spot that we can grab one.

The only sure fire way to ensure getting one would be to chose him at 15 but, just like Ingram, they all have enough warts that they don't merit the 15th spot overall imho.

Cheers,

Heading back from Naples, check you all later when I get home.

What we do know is that there is a pretty long FA RB list this year. There are some pretty good ball players on that list and the CBA will get worked out eventually so we should have access to at least some of them.

We also know that Ross is the 2nd richest owner in the league and doesn't seem to mind spending money on his team (ie B Marsh and K Dansby).

If all else fails, we can resign Ronnie and grab a RB later on in the draft. Also emphasize undrafted RBs and bring in a number of those.

Cheers,

Damn! It's windy as hell here in OC!!!

Later fin4life! Sorry you couldnt stay more bro.

Cheers,

If I traded my 1st for a 1st and 3rd, you better believe I'd have to have a 4th as well, this year.

That's why I think this scenario is highly unlikely as well.

Ireland, always the smart shopper, won't part with a 1st for only a lower 1st and a 3rd. It's not chart value and for Gods sake, he doesn't want to look stupid.

The other side of that coin is that if a team does give up a 3rd and 4th to swap, they wouldn't pick again until the 5th round.

Unless the team were trading with moves up only a couple of slots, I can't see it happening. Also, considering the talent drop off(10-12 range) in the 1st, particularly with this draft class, it seems even more unlikely

If I am hearing the rumble correctly, there is some sentiment that we may see NO RBs in the 1st round.

That would be pretty wild!

Cheers,

Rob,

I agree with your right to disagree, no problem.

However, comparing Henne to Manning to make a point? You get one big C'mon MAN! for that.

Sure Manning makes everyone around him better. Marino did too.

I hate to be the first one to break it to ya - but - Mallet ain't no Manning and he sure ain't no Marino!

(Rob-read this post with dripping sarcasm-LOL!)

I'm going to take my Ingram rant to differant angle and merely say, when we pick at 15, which player left will have the best chance of making the most impact while filling a position of need? With no second round pick, the burden is even double to make the first pick count. A starter from day one that can fill that position for 7+ years. Hasn't that been this teams problem? Too many wasted picks? 99% of the team wasn't here 4 years ago, no way to win like that. That is all I really care about, that they score with that pick and fill a postion of need, not another trainee project who won't help us in 2011.

And as a special bonus comment for Rob... well personally I think you have understated Ingrams abilities a bit, but I'm not going to go there. I will say the rest of those late round backs have far more negatives than positives in comparison to Ingram, which is why they are projected as later rounders.

Lastly, the very fact that all the mocks have Miami taking him is the very reason Ireland won't. He'll do his best to outsmart everybody, and if not, outsmart himself. Maybe draft a center with a glass nose.

odin,

No worries mang. You and I go back loing enough that a simple difference of opinion is not gonna drive a wedge my hearty, ponytailed blonde friend from the sea!

The thing is... until you see em out on the field... how do we truly know that Mallet is not the next Marino? He threw 3X the TDs to INTs? Who besides TB thought Freeman was going to be as good as he is?

What I'm saying is I feel our Passing game, in a Passing league is further behind than it should be due to what I see as mistakes by the QB.

Others say it's because of the coaching, the lack of killer weapons, the OL etc and those can all contribute. But when the call is a 7 yard slant and Henne puts it behind the WR and it gets tipped for an INT that is not the play call, coaching, WR or OL... I would put that on Henne. If he is getting hit as he throws I would definitley place that on shoddy OL play and hold Henne non accountable unless he held the ball way too long.

Cheers,

Rob,

That's my whole point.

I don't think this QB draft class has any Mannings or Marino's.

Heck, I don't even think it has a Henne!!!!

Take a chance on a guy like Stanzi later and address the needs you can early. That franchise QB just ain't in the cards this year.

I'm with odin @4:46. Some of these QBs may very well turn out to be good, but at the same time I don't get a strong feeling any are better than Henne...they all seem like high risk prospects to me.

Rob,

I'm not an idiot........well, ah depending on who you ask anyways. I don't have a crystal ball. Just throwing around opinions and gut feelings just like everyone else.

Just for the record, I was one of few who thought Freeman would/will be "special" Especially after seeing him in pre season this past year.

I won't defend Henne either. He's showed flashes and then laid eggs.

I will say that up to this point, he has been put in the worst possible situations in which to succeed.

Because of what I believe is an extremely weak QB class, I want to pick up Stanzi later and hope against hope that he turns out to be the next Brady!

As Mando would say, let THAT marinate for sec................LOL!

0x80,

Thanks for the bonus comment bud!

Beauty is ALWAYS in the eyes of the beholder.

If we are forced to stay at 15 (With the right package of picks it can always be navigated some imho) then you have to find the best player period. When you say the best player and then have the huge caveat like *that fills a position of need then you severely limit the talent pool you are choosing from to find this stud player.

Like I would be fully on the band wagon if Adrian Peterson was the guy we were talking about at 15 instead of Ingram. Killer stud of a RB and ALSO happens to fill a need.

My challenge is that unless WR Green or Jones fall and they wont in my opinion. There really is no one on the OFF side that fits the bill as a 15th worthy player. Maybe the OT Ty Smith?

Me personally I feel that DE Cameron Jordan is worth the 15th pick. I also think time will tell you would only be reaching a few spots to grab the big NT Phil Taylor who moves crazy for a guy 330+ lbs.

That's why the whole, "just stay at 15 and fire your gun" is a tough mantra for me to rally to.

The players that fit 15th overall value just don't seem to be there (barring a tumble by one of the ones mentioned going earlier all the time).

Cheers,

Rob,

I like Cameron Jordan and I like Jordan Cameron!

I don't think the DE will be there at 15, but if he is, I'm all in!

Rob,

Sharpen your pencil, have a double expresso, and then begin writing...because its going to take you a long long long time to convince me its worth trading a 15 for a late 1 and a 3.

We are behind the Pats and the Jets in skill and picks. (I don't believe the Jets will just fall apart this year like some think)

Therefore we can't afford to not fill a position of need with the #1 pick.

Draft Ingram then a RB, DE, OL, WR, WR, and Speacial Teams players and sign FA's WR Plaxico and RB Brown, TE Miller and give Henne a chance and see what he really has to offer. Its a stretch but I like it........

odin,

On the Freeman call you would have to give up the pick and choose him before you could see him in preseason. Looking at his stats from college you would be more daring than I to use the 17th pick overall on Freeman.

2006 Kansas State Wildcats GP 11, RATE 103.45, ATT 270, COMP 140, % 51.9, YARDS 1,780, TDs 6, INTs 15

2007 Kansas State Wildcats GP 12, RATE 127.26, ATT 499, COMP 316, % 63.3, YARDS 3,353, TDs 18, INTS 11

2008 Kansas State Wildcats GP 12, RATE 136.49, ATT 382, COMP 224, % 58.6, YARDS 2,945, TDs 20, INTs 8

Career GP 35, RATE 124.73, ATT 1,151, COMP 680, % 59.1, YARDS 8,078, YPA 11.87, TDs 44, INTs 34


Mallets stats for head to head compare:

Career 3 seasons GS 29, RATE 150.4, ATT 955, COMP 552, % 57.8, YATDS 8,385, YPA 15.1, TDs 69, INTs 24

I totally understand that Mallets questions are mainly off the field and lack of mobility. From a straight gunslinger view the stats seem to reveal a player in that mid first round range.

Some say that Mallet is sliding and may land as far down as the 3rd. If so, his value would be pretty killer at that point, Leaf issues or not.

LOL, consider your post completely marinated.

Cheers,

Ingram is NOT special and this debate is boring now.

Aldron Smith or J Jones or any primer O-lineman would all be better picks at 15.

Rest assured though, Ireland will make the lame Ingram pick if they can not trade down.

What up fellas???

I posted a similar comment a few days ago. I'm going to try and make my point again. So I apologize if this is redundant.

I don't see how we trade into the second round this year. This years first round is loaded with defensive talent. Once you get into the 15 range the value is fairly similar to what you may find at say later in the round. My point is that most of the teams behind the Phins don't really have to move up to aquire a player that fills their need.

Also, since free agency is up in the air. I think teams are going to really put extra value on their picks this year. What player on the board is worth giving your second round pick for? The only 2 teams with 2 second round picks are the Pats, and the Bolts. I'm sure that the Dolphins aren't the only team that is on those teams jocks for one of those choices.
The problem is, we don't have much to offer in way of a fair trade that may entice one of those outfits to dance with us.

Future picks don't really make much sense because I just see teams putting a premium on all picks they have in their disposal. So all this said. I think you may see teams doing things that are a little abnormal, or unconventional. If we could aquire another 3rd rounder by moving down a few spots in the first. We have to do it. We need as many chances to roll the dice as we can get. The third round is still a premium round. Good players will be available.

There are a lot more options as well as teams that may be willing. Those teams do not pick so far away from our spot at 15 that it would be such a bad idea. Remember, we can get very similar talent at 20 as we would at 15.

Now, all of this may mean nothing. The draft never plays out as people think. Lots of suprises, and head scratchers. All it takes is 1 team getting a mean on over a player and all things go out the window. Players may fall, other teams may make trades that could in a round robin way benifit us. Who knows. But as far as getting into round 2. I think we can forget it.

Amando, did you say Ricky Williams wasnt a difference maker? Did you quickly forget how great Ricky was playing with one of the worse offenses and passing games in the league. He was carrying our offense by himself. The Vikes made it the playoffs because of Adrian Petterson before Favre got there. So do not underestimate the importance of a running back.

0x80,

1.) You have to quantify late 1 for one thing... the term "late 1" is very vague.

2.) The fictitious trade team we would be trading with, are they in the top 10 of the rounds or last 10? That too is unclear.

3.) My post included something they would gove us in 2012. The magis of that is a 3rd round pick would have to be a 2nd in 2012 value wise.

So if the team said, I will give you a trade for a later 1st and two thirds and we will have a deal. If one of those bargain chip 3rds was a 2012 pick it would then be moved to a 2012 2nd if they didn't have 2 2011 3rd round picks.

Double esspresso fully engaged! LOL

Cheers,

odin @ 5:15,

100% agree. I think we would get farther adding players that should be studs then being pidgeon holed into drafting for need.

Cheers!

DD...welcome bud!

Some excellent points you make.

This draft may be a bit of a weird animal due to the CBA / FA stuff all upside down.

It seems to me that you still have to play things fairly close to how you would normally on the spending side as you know an eventual salary cap is coming. This would mean with BM and KD already in the fold, we can't chase too many big ticket FAs even if Ross has the $cratch.

That alone, if they don't figure out the new CBA, would tend to make teams lean towards picking needs more than they normally would.


Good stuff DD!

Cheers,

I wonder if there will be some really covert trades that come across as bizzare, or WTF. I'm thinking that perhaps there may be trades that indirectly involve players once the CBA is figured out, and trades are allowed.

Say we do make a trade lets just say into the second round. The team we make the trade with has the understanding that once the mess is cleaned up, they would in good faith get the veteran player. So on the surface, there isn't a players trade, but an agreement that once the CBA is resolved. The real piece in the draft day trade(the vet) would be secured.

It wouldn't be to far fetched to imagine GM's making deals like this. Coming to an understanding that even though no trades can be made on draft day, that they can make a deal that kind of puts the player on layaway.
Does this make any sense?

Rob in OC....WHATUP!!!!!!!!!!

I have a hangover the size of Texas. I hosted a fundraiser last night. Then this morning I vomited. Cool right?

Andra Franklin: The whale of licorice ordained by the Elders.

Duriel Harris: The Salt Robot of Norway in lace panties.

Jon Giesler: Temptress of the Moon Guavas and Grand Vicar of Uganda.

Jimmy Cefalo: Laughing Wombat of the Council of Sticky Rice Subways.

They gather and select crackers together, these Dolphins of yore.

you hit the nail on the head here, mando. backs are easier to come by in any round (and undrafted, for that matter). i do not put mark ingram in an elite category. to me he's joseph addai with more carries.

Dear Peppermint,

SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS

Love,

Dolphin Fans

Are you and Charlie Brown stll giving each other handjobs?

Are you and Lucy still giving Rim Jobs?

Peppermint,

Your neither clever or funny.

Please blog at Fox News

They all dropped out of High School to

I've been reading we need a WR that can 'stretch the field' and that's true. But who's gonna throw the ball? Due to the 'genious' of the past 3 drafts/FAs, we don't have either.

Why does Ireland still have a job?

Dear Linus.
I blog at CNN where the fifth grade was their senior year.

The Dolphins draft record under Ireland and Co. is actually quite average by NFL standards.

Sure, we all wish they were routinely drafting future stars but the notion that they've done horrendous in that department is a fan-driven fallacy that simply isn't supported by the facts.

If you want truly horrible drafting and personnel decisions, look back no further than when Spielman was there. Ireland has made MUCH more sound and intelligent decisions on balance, even if it could always be better.

SI reporting on all the QB's the fins are bringing in for private workouts: Newton, Gabbert, Mallet, Stanzi, Kaepernick. It could be they really are looking to draft a QB at 15 if one falls and are doing there due dilligence.

Whether its smoke screen or not, I think there are enough players that will be worthy of a 15 pick that I just don't see it worth trading back and sacrificing quality for quantity.

What do you mean "it could be", 0x80? It is a certainty.

MEXICO STYLE FRENCH FRYS TODAY I PUT CHILI POWDER AND THEN CHEESE DIP ((VELVETA)) WITH HALOPINO PEPPERS. BUT I THINK THE CHINA STYLE ONES...ALSO POTATOE CHIPS WAS BETTER STILL

YES IT IS SMOKE SCRREEN THEY WILL NOT DRAFT QB. HENNE WILL; BREAK OUT AND ROOKIE CANT PLAY NOW ANYWAYS

The most difficult task in the Kitchen is cooking plain white rice.

"Henne; will break out", in what, ALoco?

Aloco,

Some woman tried to feed me Pork Chop Suey today.

I did a shot of cheap tequila, poured a TALL Heineken and said, "I'm not Hungry"!

Pork Chop Suey My A s s!!!!

Mallet won't slide out of the 1st round.

Too many QB hungry teams looking at his numbers and remembering Marino's slide.

Just like the teams looking at Newton and dreaming of the Dog Killer, they're all going to be disappointed!

You heard it here first, OK, probably not. Just pretend like you did.

Edmund Gates, WR Abilene Christian

6'-0" 192 and no Jeffy, his Mom is not a Hooker, though his Dad is a murderer!

03/04/2011 - Abilene Christian wide receiver Edmund Gates was one of the fastest players at the combine, with a 40-yard time of 4.37 seconds. The oddity was that Gates ran the time in the shoes that former Abilene star Johnny Knox used when he ran in 2009. Knox clocked a 4.34 and was a fifth-round choice of the Bears. "I thought if they were fast for him, they could be fast for me, too," Gates said.

i LOVE IT WHEN ODIN AND OX80 TALK TO FAKE ALOCO AS IF THEY DON'T KNOW HE'S FAKE .

i though all alocos are fake. is there a real one?

0X80,

THIS NEWS IS 24 HOURS OLD ABOUT THE FINS HAVE WORKOUT FOR THESE QB'S ,BARRY JACKSON HAD AN ARTICLE 24 HOIURS AGO ABOUT THAT IN THE HERALD ......


WHERE'S ARMANDO ? HE ONLY COMES UP WITH POSTS ANY ONE CAN COME UP WITH .

EVEN THE CUBAN MENACE CAN COME UP WITH BETTER POSTS .

I know how to find out if I'm talking to the REAL ALoco.

Answer these two questions and I will know the truth.

1, How do you REALLY spell "Viking"?

2. What did the Vikings do in the 8th and 9th centuries?

If you don't answer I will know you're the fake.

1. VICKINGS.

2- THEY KILLED OLD MEN,CHILDERN AND STOLE OUR GOLD AND SILVER AND RAPED OUR WOMEN .

ALoco I've given up doing research now and get all my news and updates from you. You should have posted that info 24 hours ago. You are getting lazy.

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