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There are no prototypes at RB, plus more from experts

Running backs have been a big topic of discussion on the Miami Herald site lately and that continues today.

My column in today's newspaper looks, in part, at Mark Ingram Jr. and how the Dolphins should not discount him based on what the naked eye suggests are his drawbacks.

I've been lukewarm on Ingram until now because, frankly, he doesn't look impressive to me. He's not big. He's not fast. He's just, just, productive.

Then I got three sources on the phone. I reached out to personnel men -- one of whom is still in the NFL, all of whom own Super Bowl rings -- and they told me not to caught up in searching for a prototype running back.

There are none.

Running backs, unlike all the other positions, do not need to come in one particular shape or size to play well. Even the Dolphins, a team whose draft principles is picking for prototype size, understand that doesn't necessarily apply to running back.

At least I hope they do. One of the people I spoke with has talked with Jeff Ireland and he's certain Ireland understands running backs are the exception in the hunt for prototypical size.

Just look at some that succeeded. Chris Johnson, arguably the most dangerous runner in the NFL the past two years, is tall and lanky. He also happens to be fast as a spy plane. Marion Barber is compact and stocky and not very fast. Darren McFadden is big and loose in the hips and fast. Curtis Martin weighed 207 pounds. John Riggins weighed 237 pounds. Barry Sanders was 5-9 and he looked nothing like 5-9 Emmitt Smith.

They were or are all very good to great. There was not one prototype among them.

I tell you more about Ingram in the column. I also share with you the opinions of the experts on other players available in the draft. Hint: They aren't sold on picking offense if the best playmaker on the board is a defender.

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If the dolphins were smart, then they would stay with Ronnie and Ricky for one more season. They were not the problem in the running game; the offensive line was the problem. Besides, our immediate needs have changed anyway, since Jared Odrick has decided to leave to go and sell newspapers on the corner of fifth and broad st. We now need a quarterback, defensive end and a wide receiver. So, Ireland should trade down to recoup our second round pick.

Second.

I am not at all opposed to drafting a Robert Quinn, DaQuan Bowers or Aldon Smith at 15 and turning this young man over to Mike Nolan. Remember when Buffalo had Bruce Smith and Cornelius Bennett they were a pain.

"Besides, our immediate needs have changed anyway, since Jared Odrick has decided to leave to go and sell newspapers on the corner of fifth and broad st."

I know you did not fall for that April Fools Joke posted the other day about Ordick retiring did you?


What do you think of Philadelphia?

Their cream cheese is excellent?? :)

If we stay at 15, I say take Ingram. I like a guy that will get me a 1st down when you need 4 yards. Those kind of players will get you into the red zone and end zone methodically. He has the strength in his legs and upper body to get you the extra yard or two. If we don't trade down I say grab him or he will haunt us.

"picking for prototype size"

I think does matter for rb. Of course not all rb's will always fail if not proto type, but there is a proto type for a reason. And rb is defiantly one of those positions where prototype has always been talked about for many reasons, including durability,the most important.

Bob Huff, Idk how much this has been talked about, but I think if we trade down, depending what spot we trade down to, we could possibly pick up a 2nd and still draft Ingram. And then grab a Olineman in the 2nd. This would be ideal i think. Or Oline in late 1st, and Leshoure in the 2nd.

..I just want to make a comment about last nights posts. I have offered my own trade scenarios with the Pats, that in my mind make total sense. Some agreed, some thought I was crazy. Both reasonable responses.

But Dying Breed..You scenario is outright insane. And I apologize if this gets your goat, or you think I don't get it. But come on. I know that it makes perfect sense to you(plus it is just an idea to toss around) But to think that we would be blocking possible Patriot players by aquiring more picks is a poor reason to make any trade.

We have to do what is right for this team regaurdless of what NE does. I have made the point that they have TOO MANY picks, and will certainly trade some to aquire premium players in this draft. I have said this before. They are a young team. For most franchises a stable of picks would be a dream. But how many rookies are going to make a difference? Realistically, how do you fit them onto your roster? It would be much different if the Pats were an old team, and you could stash these picks on the roster and let them develop. But 1/2 of their team is developing, learning on the fly. No room to cram 6 picks in the first three rounds, plus picks rounds 4-7.

They can have ANY player in this draft with the firepower they hold. Remember untill something changes, only picks can be traded. They hold the keys. The are the sellers, other teams the buyers, and they can name their price.

Picking Mark Ingram at number 15 would be insane. Hes a poor man's version of Ronnie Brown. Don't see how hes an upgrade at all. Don't believe me? Watch highlights of Mark Ingram and Ronnie Brown and see who is the better.

If the Fins were smart they would resign Ronnie Brown to a 2 year deal then draft a smaller, speedy, scat back type to complement him in the third round.

Mark Ingram at 15 would be the biggest waste since Ted Ginn.

DD,

Youre 1:32pm post is perfect example of difference of perception, not fully understanding, and carving out a small segment of something just to support your own views.

Why didnt you also read the post where I said Pats can trade thier 2011 picks for the same round values in 2012. Then make a run at trading those extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd rd picks for the top spot in 2012 draft to choose Andrew Luck?

That's why so many misinterpret Bible scripture. They only read a single line when they need to read the entire paragraph to have better chance of interpreting the meaning.

Thats why I also posted, I will no longer post any complex scenarios here because the the twisted perceptional skills of some on hear are far to bent to follow a straight line.

From now on out I will be posting in crayon & coloring book and ABC learning block form. "Run Spot run"! LOL............

DD,

Calculus mathematics is also "insane" to those who dont have the capacity to grasp it! LOL........

Just because a man is blind doesnt mean that the daylight doesnt exist! LOL...........

Here, I'll make it real easy for EVERYONE:

"The Miami Dolphins will pick at least one rb in the 2011 NFL Draft."

I didnt lose anyone with that statement, did I?

This is the problem I have with drafting Ingram. Like Ronnie Brown he requires good blockers and that is something Miami lacks. Part of Brown's short comings last year was due to the OL not being able to get to their blocks fast enough, which in turn made it look like Brown was dancing in the back field. With Miami, I really don't see Ingram being a impact player his rookie year that people would expect from a 1st rd RB.

For the record my sleeper RB is Alex Green out of Hawaii.

Armando will write at least one more blog topic before the end of 2011.

K.I.S.S.- Keep It Simple Stupid! LOL.............

Dying.. you take this stuff to personal. Like you said if we could talk face to face it would make it much easier. There were a lot of things I disagreed with. The point about taking possible Pat picks was just one of them. I have posted scenarios as well. Some people understand, some don't. Some agree, some do not. It's all okay. If the team is listening to any of us we are much bigger trouble than I thought right?

To your point about trading future picks. I have made enough points here the last 2 months. That I don't think that teams are going to go for that this draft. Plus we cannot just continue to trade away picks in future drafts that put us in this position. We do not have to get into the second round to have a successful draft.

As far as your draft day scenario. I just saw it as the least likely of all of the scenarios folks have put forth. It's okay.Doesn't make you a bad guy. I just happen to disagree. i would be happy to give you my trade back scenario which you can critique. Not a big deal.

With 2 7th rd picks in hand, Jeff Ireland will choose at least 7 players in the 2011 NFL Draft.

DD,

Maybe if your perceptional skills were sharp enough. Then you would understand that I was throwing out possible, not probable to happen scenarios.

Did you confuse yourself by misperceptionalizing I was making Nostrodamus like predictions? Its not my fault you took it out of perception. I was stating possibilities, not probabilities. LOL.........

Breed has a SUPERIORITY complex. Referencing the Bible and things. Most Christians think they're smarter and better than others.
By the way Brees if you were so intelligent you would not mispell their (thier ) every time.

Breed not Brees

As far as taking things personal, I dont. You guys take this far more personal than I do. I can really give a damn less. LOL.......

It just really blows my mind how far out of text some of you guys can take things. I find it more amusing than anything else! LOL............

Breed-
Yeah I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us- you have any thoughts of- of your own on this matter? Or do- is that your thing, you come into a blog, you read some obscure passage and then you pretend- you pawn it off as your own- your own idea just to impress some girls? Embarrass my friend?

Dying... I get I get it. Did you read my first post. (just tossing out ideas) Also that these are just scenarios, nothing that the team is taking seriously. Dude I get it!

I offered my SCENARIO a few days ago. I went on RECORD as saying this was just an idea. By no way did I ever expect the team to actually do what I had written. But it was just a model of how I thought we could get a second round pick. Like I said. Some peolpe agreed, some did not. Does that make the folks who disagreed stupid, or lacking the ability to conceptualize? By no means. Come on, you of all people know this is a forum to spew opinions. I do not understand the personal attack.

Finsarmegeddon,

Doomday sayer supreme. I bow down to you my mighty under lord. Your day cometh to slay and pillage. Your day has cometh to fight when its not your fight. LOL.........

All hail the day has cometh when there's doom to us all. The day of reckoning has arrived. Thoust all mayest tremble under the reckoning under the mighty armegeddon! Evil shall be vanquished.

Thy children shall now arrive with olive branch in hand. Fearest not no more. For armegeddon hast been trampled into and underneath the earth. He now faneth the flames of the eternal fires forever more! LOL........

DD,

Personal attack? You virtually conceptualized me as insane for kicking out an idea which "IS" a possible scenario. Here's what you said:

"But Dying Breed..You scenario is outright insane."

FinsArm....G.W.H. Nice.

Dying..I will give you that your scenario is possible. I understand it is just a scenario. Nothing more. If I insulted you by calling you idea insane. That was not my intention. I disagree that is it. I do not think this is worth getting into a pissing match over. So I offer a truce, so we can move on to a different topic. There is no use in subjecting the blog to a day of back and forth between you and I about this scenario.

DD,

Truce? "So it is written, let it be so!"

I placed it that Egyptian Pharoah Rameses statement in qoutations just for Finsarme-doomsayer. Dont wanna be accused of plaguerizing again! LOL..........

DD,

I see you are still coming round. Thats a good thing. I thought we had lost you a while back.

As it was I took a break as well.

I see the Ingram debate os alive and well!

DB and 0x80 still on the I-Train it appears.

I think that choosing Ingram with 15 would be a REALLY bad play with no value at all.

Since I feel there are more talented players (OFF/DEF) to be had at 15 or later as well as running backs that will do better that get drafted in later rounds getting Ingram at 15 seems very wasteful.

I feel that Ronnie Brown would play better with more holes to run through as well and that Ingram is NOT a guy that creates on his own.

If they were to add a Tyron Smith or Mike Pouncey in the 1st they could resign Ronnie and draft a fast scatback/ take it to the house type guy like Taiwan Jones or Dion Lewis or Noel Devine later.

Cheers,

AND LIKE ALLWAYS I SEE THE GANG OF DEFEAT NOBODY WORKS AND PROBABL;Y GETTING DRUNK ALL DAY AND THEN TOO HANGED OVER TOMOROW TO LOOK FOR A JOB. BUT HERE I AM PAYING FOR (((YOURE))) WELFARE CHECKS.

Finsarme-doomsayer,

When DD runs out of toilet paper I hope you'll also be there Mr. Charmin! LOL................

Aloco,

Still politically spunky as ever!

Cheers,

THE SCENARO I SEE IS THE GANG OF DEFEAT IN APE CITY JHAIL WAITING FOR THERE TRIAL FOR LAZYNESS WHI8LE AT THE SAME TIME THERE IS CHINA MAN HYENA COWHER AND NAKED ORPAH WINFRY AND HER BREST MILK ON TRIAL FOR TRYING TO STEEL MR, ROSS MONEY. .....ALL WILL BE FOUND GILTY.

ROB IN OC YES THAT IS TRUE BECUASE I HAVE SEE THIS TRUTH MANYT TIMES. THEY ARE HERE ALLWAYS AND DONT WORK. AND THEN THYEY WERE CRITICLE OF ME WHEN I PUT MU FAMOS RECIPES ON HERE THAT ALL ENJOY. THEY ARE JELOS.

I will say that when Taiwan Jones has his Pro Day mid April and ends up running what he is capable of (Sub 4.3) I bet he is not a late round afterthought as some on here have tried to make him.

He will move up in a draft year chuck full of 2-4 round RB talents.

There are still some experts saying Ingram may slide to early second round.

The bottomline is ANYTHING can happen and usually every draft has some surprises.

Tyson Alualu by the Jags last year. WR DHB by the Raiders early 1st round. How about WR Avery going to the Rams as the first WR off the board at the top of the 2nd???

Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.

Because of the Owner Boss Ross wanting excitement, the Bifecta wanting to create QB much needed QB competition, having NO second round pick and FA being after the draft... they may just pull a "Mallet" out of the hat at 15 to play whack-a-mole with the AFC East.

Sure it's earlier than some many would project but that may be the ONLY way to ensure getting the biggest arm in the draft.

Yet another scenario that while may be a tad far flung does not defy total logic. To win the QB draft lotto they will have to buy the appropriate ticket.

Cheers,

Rob-OC,

Ronnie's problem is he's just not a decent back. The oline's primary problem is that we didnt have decent vertical threats.

Marshall was always doubled, Hartline couldnt command a double, and we didnt have a vertical TE(seam threat). Compounding matters further, when a reciever did get open deep Henne consistently over or under threw them.

What this all adds up to is, with no threatning vertical game. 7-8 men in the run box and extremely tough time creating running room for the rb's.

Add that to our redemptionary db's(dropping surefire picks). How many of those dropped picks ended in 2nd chance scores for the opposing offense when when it should have been a turnover for us? It may still be a pass defensed but its still equates to turning over a turnover.

An offense cant produce when sitting on the sidelines either. Db's cant continue dropping surefire picks. Those are great opportunities that we cant get back.

OIC Aloco,

Well, you are here, still posting, undaunted, and I am sure you can slip in a recipe or 3 and you will still be posting here no problem.

Blogs are places where people will disagree and often do. Hopefully they don't get too personal or it's straight to Ape City Jail for them eh?

Cheers,

DB,

you said @ 3:26...

Marshall was always doubled, Hartline couldnt command a double, and we didnt have a vertical TE(seam threat). Compounding matters further, when a reciever did get open deep Henne consistently over or under threw them.

What this all adds up to is, with no threatning vertical game. 7-8 men in the run box and extremely tough time creating running room for the rb's.

Add that to our redemptionary db's(dropping surefire picks). How many of those dropped picks ended in 2nd chance scores for the opposing offense when when it should have been a turnover for us? It may still be a pass defensed but its still equates to turning over a turnover.

So how does drafting RB Ingram at 15 cure ANY of the items you stated so well? Wouldn't fixing these issues make Ronnie better? (I.E. More room and holes to run through)

Cheers,

Guys,

To tell you all the truth, I now am more inclined to believe getting Shula and the early 70's success was just an anomally in time. The lack of success for the last past decade or more could possibly be resounding evidence of it.

I know its a bitter pill to swallow but Dolphin history going forward. May only be middle of the pack success at best. So my deepest sentiments to those who were yet not around when the Dolphins had the greatest success they'll ever have during the early 70's.

I know many may not want to accept this, but Ive reserved my place for this potential reality. Like all of you I want to see early 70's repeated success. But Im not going to allow myself to be a highly vulnerable fool either. LOL..................

DB,

One small miracle at a time...

#1 Win more HOME games.

#2 Reach the playoffs with some regularity.

#3 Improve playoff runs advance further.

#4 Take your SB shots when you have the player age window open.


They did have never before and never since type success in the early 70s... I would not hold them to that standard as it has been a once in a lifetime thing thus far.

As we see #6 seeds getting in and winning the SB, Worst to First scenarios playing out in divisions races each year...anything can happen.

Sounds like your glass is 1/3 full and is leaking.

Cheers,

Rob-OC,

Ronnie wasnt a great rb coming out of Auburn. He shared the backfield with Cadillac Williams. The guy had a great combine and 40 time then ended up drafted 2-3 overall.

Ingram has far better vision, knows how to set up his blocking far better, and his far more elusive than Brown. Ingram would be a better back than Brown with the same level of oline play that Brown had last season.

Still, without a legit vertical threat game, its highly unlikely he runs for 1600-1800yds in a season. But if I did have to face 7-8 in the box I would definitely want a "highly skilled" rb like Ingram over most.

..You guys saw how Ronnie ran last year. He was accused of "dancing" or being to patient. Ingram is the same style of runner. He is better when he can find a seam and cutback through it. I don't think he fits our style of run offense at all. Armando said it his last post. The Phins are looking for a runner who squares his shoulders(I know they all have to do this) then gets up field. This isn't Ingrams strong suit. I think he would be better off in a zone scheme.

As for RB. Jones. His pro day is April 14. Rumor around these parts is he should run in the low 4.4 to 4.3 40. I project that he will be a 5-7 round guy. He would look good returning punts, and kneeling down touchbacks. Dion Lewis is another interesting guy. But much like Ingram, I think he is better suited for a zone scheme offense, or west coast. He reminds me of Brian Westbrook.

DB,

Ronnie Brown was drafted in part because when his LSU team was playing Auburn most of his own players were saying "I would much rather play against that Caddilac guy as that Ronnie Brown guy is a beast to tackle".

Running backs "Vision"...how do we quantify that one. I mean I know that good backs need it but how do we as fans or scouts register that stat/ability? I think it ranks up there with "Heart"...another as yet to be defined or quantified stat.

Your guy Ingram had

2008 728 total yards
2009 1658 total yards
2010 875 total yards

Seems like pretty luke warm actual performance numbers to hang a high 1st round grade on?

Cheers,

Rob-OC,

Our best chance of again winning a SB came against the Redskins. With the SB trophy seemingly in our mitts, Riggins rips off that very demoralizing td run. We lose a fairly close one, but it's still one we should have had.

Then in 1984, Marino shattering all single season passing records. Leads us to our final SB ending in a resounding blowout. The game wasnt even as close as the final lopsided 33-16 score indicated. It was the day all Dolphin SB runs would end.

Miami's SB headstone still stands on that field even today. Evidenced by we have yet to return to A SB game since. R.I.P!

DB,

Why hang around and torture yourself?

Why not bail and root for more of a recent SB winner? The Pats can use yet another bandwagon fan?

You may be exactly right and eventually by my own lifes end the Fins may not have even been in another SB...but, I gotta keep more hope than you got bud. If not, that would take the fun out of my "let's watch this game and see what happens?" mentality.

Cheers,

Rob-OC,

Again, you guys constantly misinterpret my posts. I see Ingram best available if forced to pick at #15 based soley upon what's available if we're forced to pick there. Sure we can go defense but there isnt anyone there that's a glaring need. Our "glaring needs are on the "offensive side of the ball."

I challenge you guys to name an offensive player likely to be around at #15, if forced to pick there, that has a legit #15 grade on him. That is the only thing That I have been posting. Nothing more, nothing less.

Did you also see where I went an entirely different direction with tradeback scenarios? You guys take one thing, misinterpret it, than raun with as law without looking at the entire picture of what a poster has been posting. Geesh! LOL........................

DD,

The gigantic difference between RB Dion Lewis and Ingram is the many rounds difference in where you can pick them in the draft.

You may be dead on with the style match but, the Lewis kid is much more of a make you miss by himself guy than Ingram in this man's humble opinion.

Cheers,

DB,

Can we agree that Ingram is not a "create yards by yourself, make you miss guy?"

Cheers,

Rob-OC,

Unrealistic hope is invain. It isnt that Im overly pessimistic. I just like prepare myself for eventual realities too. LOL.............

If I didnt have a small sliver of hope just in case I wouldnt be here. LOL.................

Aloco...Ape city jail is brilliant. I'm still laughing. Thank you for that. Hos is the pepper steak at the Ape city jail?

Rob, DB...Don't you think that Brandon Marshall being doubled, and having so many situations with a stacked box. That a more competant quarterback could have eventually picked those defenses apart? In those defensive formations. The defense is risking one on one situations on the slot, and #2 reciever. It is up to the quarterback to get these guys the ball. Recoginize the damn coverages(we saw them all year) get rid of the ball on time, to the open reciever, or the mis match.

Once Hartline got hurt. did you notice this is when the sack total started skyrocketing. Perhaps he couldn't command a double team. But he could run routes, and get open. he could definitley beat man coverage. Moore, and Pruit could not. with all of their size and speed. They could not beat the jam, or get consistanty open in man coverage.

Rob-OC,

Make you miss? Ingram is rated very elusive, the same as "make you miss". Ronnie hasnt made anyone miss during his entire career in Miami.

He couldnt even make that highway patrolman miss who arrested him for DUI. He always gets caught! LOL..........

DD,

I still think blitzes scare hell out of Henne and he doesnt adjust well. That's usually when his sacks skyrocket. He seems to not have agreat feel of where the extra blitzer is coming from and walks right into sacks. LOL......

Rob...I agree 100 percent.(Ingram-Lewis comparison). That is where the Lewis to Westbrook comparison comes into play. Both have low center of gravity, the ability to make people miss. Ingram in more of a bulldozer. His runs usually end with contact, and Ingram falling forward. His specialty is run after contact, not make you miss.

One thing that I will say in Ingrams defense. He was used totaly different this year. He learned to block which he never had to do in his Heisman season. He also got a lot less carries. I don't know if this had to do with Saban looking out for his best interest. Or that Richardson was the better of the 2 backs? (a lot of people have made that statement)

Rob-OC,

I think the biggest difference between Ronnie Brown and Mark Ingram is. In situations where Brown dances behind the line and loses 1-2yds. In most of those same situations Ingram would gain 1-2yds or in the very least get back to the line of scrimmage.

With 7-8 men in the box, with his superior explosiveness and elusiveness, Ingram will pop at least 4 or 5 of those situations per season for long gainers. As Ronnie Brown would not.

Thats your difference between the abilities of Ronnie Brown and Mark Ingram.

If we pick 15 I take Torrey Smith WR , Maryland, 6'1". We don't need to draft a slow R.B. this year.Smith can stretch the field and punt return. 2 problems solved with one pick.

DB,

OT Ty Smith is one OFF player that may be there at 15 and has a solid #15 grade.

We don't really know how the REAL scouts, GMs and teams have the true order of stacking and grading all the players.

If a team felt comfortable with Mallet off the field (and this is saying a lot as some have removed him) I believe his on the field, real game numbers and tape justifies a solid 15 overall pick. 62 TDs and 19 Ints in the last two years! 64.7% completions in 2010! Lost only to Alabama, Auburn(injured) and Ohio State all year with less talent than all those schools. SEC QB pedigree. His long ball, touch and fade passes are NOT his achilles heel like Henne.

Those are two guys on OFF I think could be graded 15th overall by some teams. Mike Pouncey may be a 20-25 guy so some teams may have him as a 15?

The thing is, you and I won't really know until draft day.

Good debate to pass the time though.

Cheers,

Dying..Henne has to be better recognizing the pressure. No doubt. He will continue to face it until he proves he can deal with it. That is what I'm saying though. And of course it is easy for me to say it. I don't have to do it. but good quarterbacks feast on man opportunities. The types of defenses we faced challenged Henne to recognize the rush, and make a accurate pass. Until he can do these things regularly. His reign at quarterback will be short term.

Yeah, lets take Torrey Smith. The Darius-Bey clone. Both from Maryland, both with very high speed and very low production during thier college careers.

Arme-doomsday, are you sure you arent Al Davis in disguise here? LOL.................

DAMN! I'm a little slow sometimes , I forgot Saban the Liar aka ( the Miami F_up Machine, for you Estefan fans ), coaches Bama! I would'nt draft a damn thing he coached, the kids probably a patological liar and will sign a contract with 2 different teams!!!

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