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There are no prototypes at RB, plus more from experts

Running backs have been a big topic of discussion on the Miami Herald site lately and that continues today.

My column in today's newspaper looks, in part, at Mark Ingram Jr. and how the Dolphins should not discount him based on what the naked eye suggests are his drawbacks.

I've been lukewarm on Ingram until now because, frankly, he doesn't look impressive to me. He's not big. He's not fast. He's just, just, productive.

Then I got three sources on the phone. I reached out to personnel men -- one of whom is still in the NFL, all of whom own Super Bowl rings -- and they told me not to caught up in searching for a prototype running back.

There are none.

Running backs, unlike all the other positions, do not need to come in one particular shape or size to play well. Even the Dolphins, a team whose draft principles is picking for prototype size, understand that doesn't necessarily apply to running back.

At least I hope they do. One of the people I spoke with has talked with Jeff Ireland and he's certain Ireland understands running backs are the exception in the hunt for prototypical size.

Just look at some that succeeded. Chris Johnson, arguably the most dangerous runner in the NFL the past two years, is tall and lanky. He also happens to be fast as a spy plane. Marion Barber is compact and stocky and not very fast. Darren McFadden is big and loose in the hips and fast. Curtis Martin weighed 207 pounds. John Riggins weighed 237 pounds. Barry Sanders was 5-9 and he looked nothing like 5-9 Emmitt Smith.

They were or are all very good to great. There was not one prototype among them.

I tell you more about Ingram in the column. I also share with you the opinions of the experts on other players available in the draft. Hint: They aren't sold on picking offense if the best playmaker on the board is a defender.

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Are all of you high !!! Jeff Cross was drafted in the 12th round back in the 80`s, if you show it in training camp then you show it. I could go on for about 3 pages giving you examples

fin4, well lets just not pick anybody then. There may not be one elite player in the whole draft. If you are waiting on elite to make a pick, you will never pick anyone. Rarely, if ever, can you be sure anyway.

Rob-OC,

CJ Spiller isnt an every down rb period. He cant block at all and only avg about 13cpg in college. I had my suspicisions last season that Spiller could end up being like the Ted Ginn of the rb position.

He'll still make plays in his career, but you'll have to give him 8-10 runs a game, a few passes out of the backfield, and make him instrumental in your return game.

Spiller doesnt seem to be per say, a pure rb. He's better suited to hurt an opposing team using him in a wide variety of ways. Exactly the way he was used at Clemson. Like Ginn, it was far too high to draft that type of player.

0x80,

I won`t argue with that

fin4life,

I can nearly guarantee being drafted 12th rd, Jeff Cross must have looked llike an absolute beast nearly every limited rep he got.

When this is the case, the lower guy looking at least twice as good as the guy ahead of him, coaches will begin taking some of the higher guy's rep and giving them to a guy like Cross.

Cross is a fine example of what a guy drafted further back in the draft and from a smaller school has to do to displace guys ahead of him. He has to be so good he takes away the reps from the guy ahead of him. LOL.........

Usually a guy from a smaller school needs nearly unworldly numbers at that level to become a high nfl draft pick. Its very rare those guys get picked 3rd rd or higher.

DB,

Jury is still out on almost every player drafted last year inc Odrick, Spiller, B. Graham, R. McClain, Eads or even more accomplished guys like Blount and J.Graham.

It takes up to 3 seasons to really start to flesh out where the player is and what he can be.

Some are even later bloomers but that is more rare.

You describe the PERFECT way to use a Spiller type. Some carries, some passes, some ST returns. His Total touches per game should be from 12-25 depending on opponent, the DEF they play and how hot he is.

I won't make the same mistake I did on Rashard Mendenhall. I thought he was going to be great coming out of college so I drafted him onto a "Keeper" fantasy league. When he underperformed bigtime in his first year I got rid of him thinking I had missed. Later he went on to have very stout production and I kicked myself.

Although I was on the RB J. Best side of the draft ledger I saw CJ as a similar prospect. Spiller should contribute better in 2011 for the Bills. I hope he gets crushed vs the Fins though.

Cheers,

I get your point of view but understand that your argument is weak, I can give you a SH. load of examples were draft # doesn`t apply

Ryan Mallett desscribed HIMSELF today as 'a great kid and a great person'. Reminds many of the way Claussen talked about himself in the third person last year. Methinks if someone has to sell himself that hard to others something must be up.

It doesn't always happen but talent typically shows through.

We got Welker because the Chargers thought D. Sproles was a return upgrade.

We got rid of OLB Rob Ninkovich as we thought, like the Saints, that he didn't have the stuff. The Pats pick him up and he 62 tackles, 4 Sacks and 2 Ints in 16 games as a starter.

Danny Woodhead same song but Jets let him go Pats scoop him up and he has success.

I guess the moral of the story is that EVEN with the best football minds and eyes making the decisions with talent they are watching on their own team, mistakes get made.

The lower drafted players have less oportunities to shine but I agree with fin4life... Talent generally will rise up and get noticed.

Being twice as good a player is not a prequisite to make a team from a smaller school. It is just simply harder from a small school or drafted lower/FA type.

Devone Bess did it as a FA WR...it can be done as long as the team gives some opportunity for open, fair comp.

Cheers,

Craig M,

Welcome to the fray.

Cheers,

Rob,

Thanks bud. Have I missed all the fun? Three weeks and counting....

What I have seen out of this draft process so far that I have learned most...

If you like a kid before the combine or before his Pro Day you will prbably like him afterwards.

The draft mentality of our own bloggers is a microcosm of the real dradt arena.

When Mallet makes a comment or takes a podium the guys that don't like him say "Ohhhh, did you see this wayward poor soul of a reject kid try to defend himself. He sounds like like a Country N' Western Vanilla Ice!... lynch him!"

Those that liked his work in college before those same engagement say "Thats what I would have said!" "He didn't sound that bad to me." "What does the media want from the kid...blood?...what badgers!"

Same arguement for Ingram...

People Positive before combine "Hey he was slow as molasses but did you see that 10 yard split?...purely Olympian!" "WOW, he runs angry through cones!" "He is built like Emmitt and won a Heisman therefore only good things can happen."

People Negative before the combine "That guy is slow as molasses...period." "How can a guy coming off injury that small be considered a 3 down workhorse back in the NFL?" "Nevermind the move the chains mentality, lets get some damn chunk yards from our slow afoot team, don't add another 3 yards N' cloud O' duster!"

Pundits are doing the exact same thing. Saying things like "This 40 time will be important." "Oh, he ran really slow?...I don't care what he ran in the 40, throw that out!" If I only had a nickel for everytime Mayock (a guy I like more often than not) I would have...bags and bags of nickels.

Cheers,

Craig M,

I been out of the loop mostly lately.

Been some lively discussion of Ingram earlier. The usual suspects supporting their usual takes...inc me.

Chime in at will or add new stuff man.

Cheers,

Those experts apparently don't realize we have THREE cornerbacks that can play the game.

i don't know what everyone else thought about spiller when he was in college but, when buffalo drafted him in the first rd i was laughing. there's a guy i thought would have went in the 3rd round, at best. didn't see it but everyone was singing his praises as a first round pick and i said he wouldn't be able to play every down in this league. he's a change of speed/pace back just like lewis, locke and jones that serves a purspose but the guy isn't capable of carrying the load at this level.

Rob @ 07:29

While that is often true, its not uncommon for people to change their minds as well after listening to the 'evidence' and considering other points of view. Several of the regulars have changed their mind more than once over the last few months. In political terms they call that flip-flopping. I just call it doing your research and letting your findings influence your judgement. Early on, I was not a big Ingram fan. I had the same reservations that many here had. Now after comparing him with the others in the draft, and looking at recent drafts, IMHO, as everybody well knows, I think Ingram is fair value now at 15.

I would however be open to a trade down up to 5 spots, not 10.

0x80 @ 7:52,

(Nods in agreement)

Either way, whether flip flopping or staying steadfast to one choice throughout...

In the end, everyone gets their choice and the eventual draft order chosen, teams they went to, and eventual success or lack thereof will be the proof in the draft pudding.

I would say I did some "re"-arranging of my own mental draft board throughout the process.

Guys like Alex Green and Taiwan Jones came up where a consenus Ingram had fallen backwards after shaving the weight and still running his 4.6+ time and looking average in drills and receiving the ball.

I had come out early and often on the QB Kaep train but as I studied it more and more it appeared to me how much of an arm Mallet with touch has. Kaep would still make a fine QB groomer pick but where he will go will be problematic unless he falls to the 3rd round or later.

Mallet was a Pro Style guy against SEC comp with 62 TDs VS only 19 comps in last two years. He would be ready to challenge and beat out Henne faster than Kaep imho.

We shuffle our boards according to a culmination of input, research, video tape views and outside opinions.

Cheers,

His pro day was 4.53. Whatever. I really don't think 1/10 of a second will be the difference. I'm fine letting it all play out. Not a big deal to me if I'm calling it wrong, so be it. The guys who have their jobs on the line need to sweat, I get to enjoy the show.

when ronnie brown was in college he was never really an elusive running back and i don't think he was expected to be at his size. ronnie was more of a guy who would run thru tackles than try to make a player miss. he surprisingly had a 1.50 10 yd split in the 40. if you look at video of him in college he looks more explosive in the first ten yards than ingram does. watch him catch a screen pass and when he turns around he had a burst to get him up to speed. i don't see the same thing from ingram. that being said, i didn't believe it when miami took ronnie with the #2 pick in the first round. he was a good back in college but he didn't excel at his position.

blaine gabbert is the cleanest quarterback in the draft. apparently they place a lot of emphasis on a player's grooming habits.

Every body changes their minds on a subject according to receiving new information on it. The information we Fans get is mainly from the media and that is what most influences our opinions on a player. That could be deceiving, specially regarding these Draft matters. Luckily, as I have found out, there are knowledgeable Posters out there, in which, through time, I have come to trust their opinions. If anybody is going to sway my mind, it will be one of those.

lol @ dm1. Gabbert is like surfs up bra!

oscar canosa, nice points and good post.

We are all influenced one way or another by personal biases regarding the team we envision, the team we want to watch, whats possible, the pick #s and positions of need vs BPA ideology.

It feels like a bad dream that we are going thru all of this while the CBA is yet to be rectified.

The draft is a decent distraction for a while. Then the doom and gloom of the ongoing players vs owners battle will wreck some havoc.

I hope they figure it out pronto... non of us are getting younger and neither are they.

Cheers,

Right on, Rob.

His pro day was 4.53. Whatever. I really don't think 1/10 of a second will be the difference. I'm fine letting it all play out. Not a big deal to me if I'm calling it wrong, so be it. The guys who have their jobs on the line need to sweat, I get to enjoy the show.

Posted by: 0x80 | April 03, 2011 at 08:46 PM

Ox80, I read where Rob-OC said Ingram dropped weight and still ran a 4.6 forty. Just goes to show some here will BLATANTLY ommit true facts just to support thier fallable arguments.

If guys like Rob-OC were actual gm's thier teams would be TRULY F*UCKED!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The two most complete QB's that I have had the pleasure to watch are John Unitas and Peyton Manning. Are there any of such kind in the upcoming Draft? I don't think so.

two words: Ray Rice!

DYING BREED SHOULD GIVE US ALL A BREAK AND TAKE A FEW DAYS OFF .WE NEED A REST FROM HIS TIRED POSTS ...PLEASE GO FOR 4 DAYS SOME WHERE AND NOT POST ....IT'S GETTING ANNOYING .

ROB,

ANY CHANCE YOU CAN POST MORE OFTEN INSTED OF THIS CREEP DYING BREED ?

DB @10:27, thats pretty much what my impression was too. I'm really not so needy to be right. I may like espousing my opinion just as much as the next guy, but if I'm dead wrong so be it. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt to show me the site where he read that if he wants to, otherwise I'll just assume my initial impression was correct.

WHO HAS A GIRL FRIEND;;;;
0X80
DD
ROB IN OC
FIN4LIFE

GUYS WHO HAVE NO GIRL FRIEND ;;;

OSCAR
ARMANDO

GUYS WHO CONFUSED ABOUT GIRL FRIEN OR BOY FRIEND;;;;;;;

D.BREED
CUBAN

DB,

You are sadly mistaken...yet again!

I am 1000% percent right and will stand behind what I said was and is still fact.

Ingram dropped weight so he could run well for the COMBINE... he did drop around 10 lbs down to about 215...FACT #1!!

Then he proceeded to run adjusted verified time of 4.62 FACT #2!!

Since 4.6+ is what I put in my earlier post I am right and you are wrong.

It was ONLY later at his Pro Day that he shaved off time which many draftees do on home court tracks.

You got any other facts you want to dispute Columbo?

Cheers,

YOU ARE GIVING A LOT OF CREDIT TO COLUMBO ROB ,HE'S MORE LIKE THE WONDER WOMAN .

0x80,

You don't have to look far to find the correct combine 40 times. Google "Ingrams combine 40 time" and it should come right up for ya.

Why would I have to show you a website? I thought you followed the Combine?? You would have seen it live/or tivo'd.

You and I are the same in that if you are wrong you will admit it and so would I...I doubt DB will. He is always stirring the pot for some dastardly reason.

I thought you had stated you answer quite well and yet he had to jump in?

Cheers,

Ingram is still the man at 15! If not, Leshoure as the RB from IL later. The QBs in this draft are not great....Mallet is just like Henne, at least Newton can run and pass

Aloco,

:)

He is just upset I stated a fact that made his fav RB look bad. It's easy to see why he is all riled up.

It's all good, the draft will come, Ingram will slide and then he will see how silly it was to thrash and bash all those that said a bad word about Ingram.

Cheers,

ROB ,

DB LIKE US TO FOLLOW HIM LIKE A LITTLE BUPPY FOLLOWING HIS MAMAM.LESHOURE LEAVING SCHOOL EARLY AFTER RECORDING A BETTER NUMBERS IN 2010 THEN INGRAM'S NUMBERS IN 2009 HIS HIESMAN YEAR BEFORE HIS SURGERY ON HIS HIP AND KNEES .

GABBERT HAS A HAIRCUT THAT LOOKS PHONY AND IT'S THE REASON HE WILL SLIDE IN THE DRAFT ,THE ONLY TEAMS WHO WILL BE IMPRESSED WITH HIM ARE THE RED NECK TEAMS LIKE TITANS AND COWBOYS .

Hey Rob,

Here was my interpretation. The combine time was 4.6x, but yet it was widely well known the pro day time was like 4.53. So when you said after he dropped weight and he 'still' ran a 4.6x, as though that were implying the pro day time too. It sure sounded like you were avoiding that tidbit, as though he still ran 4.6x on the pro. You follow this stuff too so I had to think you were aware of that and left it out. So in a nutshell, since the last recorded time was 4.53 (don't nail me on the hundreths could have been 4.54) I didn't see why you were still talking about the combine time, presenting the worst case scenario instead of the best, or not both together. Thats all.

redsky,

Mallet is just like Henne? How do you figure? Mallet can actually connect on deep passes. He has touch on his fades and can throw it over the LBs and get it down behind them.

The biggest disappointment with Henne is his accuracy issues and ints. 62 TDs to 19 Ints the last two years... I will take 3 to 1 TDs to Ints all day long in the SEC.

Both are not runners is a similar trait they do share.

Hard for me to rally behind a RB coming off injury, at 5'9" 215, with less than stellar speed, that will only see about 14-22 touches a game at 15 overall. The QB handles every snap and we need the competition and need to be better in the passing game.

I do like Leshoure but it would take a trade back to land him at proper value.

Who knows if Ireland can pull it off?

Cheers,

SO ROB , YOU DON'T LIKE ;

INGRAM
LESHOURE........WHO DO YOU LIKE FOR RB ?


PS...PLEASE NO FAGE ANSWERS /THANKS.


CHEERS

Rob...Healthy shift today my man.

I appluad you for coming around on Mallet. I have continually gone on record as saying I think because of his immoblity, for tthis team. He may be the wrong choice. I think Mallet may be better off in a situation where he has no pressure to immedietly succeed. Even a place where he can sit for a few years. I don't know if Miami is the optimum landing spot for the guy.

Now, I know that anyplace Mallet goes there will be pressure on him to compete when that time comes. I'm not sure though we can use a first round pick on any quarterback. But if we did. My opinions aside. I would certainly understand why we made this choice.

But back to my point. There is a reason in punditland that Mallet has a bad rep. That he is thought of as immature, and self entitled. Is it fair or even true? I'm not sure. I just think that Henne is absolutley the wrong quarterback for Mallet to understudy. They seem to have the same issues with pocket awarness, and recognition of pressure. Mallet, like Henne is very very good when on script. I went back and looked at the first2 drives of the first half, and second half. They usually ended up as Arkansas scoring drives. When the game got off script, and adjustments made. Mallet was(like Henne) not as good. A good portion of his turnovers, and sacks came during these periods.

These games that I looked up were only the games against better competiton. Alabama, LSU(where Mallet was great the whole game) OSU, and Auburn(where Mallet only played a few series. His backup came in and threw for over 300 yards, and 3td's. System???)

0x80,

Granted I left too much to interpretation. I will do a better job to be more clear and avoid confusion.

I will be more literal next time so that things can remain much more chill.

Thanks for bringing up the way you looked at it so I could gain a greater understanding.

Cheers,

Rob-OC,

0x80 was stating he shaved the time down to 4.53 in the Pro day. You know this two but still proceeded to use the 4.6 to support your lame argument.

Thats what I stated about you guys who are willing to ommit facts that will work against your lame arguments and submit only those that support it.

Whether we draft ingram or not isnt a biggie for me. Its only you who try and support your lame arguments that keep rehashing it. Geesh! LOL..................

Aloco,

LeShoure is a nice back! Just will be drafted in the late late 1 or early 2nd so he will be tough to get at imho.

Cheers,

The only thing the posters here who are saying Ingram if we have to pick at #15. Is just that we can now see exactly why the experts are saying the same thing. Yet people against Ingram are seeming to bash us only because we're agreeing with the experts! LOL..........

I AM SURE LESHOURE WILL BE GONE BEFOR OUR 15 .

DB ALWAYS PICK THE WRONG GUY FOR FINS,
HE PICKED ODRICK AND PAT WHITE AND NOW HE TELLS US GET INGRAM AFTER HIS HIP AND KNEE INJURIES .LOL

As far as I can tell everyone here supporting what the experts say is our best #15 pick(Ingram). For us to be so immovedbly stuck on Ingram, We all seem to unanimously support a trade back scenario too.

You Ingram bashers seem to think we're endorsing him as gospel when its so far from the truth. What part of we support a trade back scenario even more you "stiff necks" dont understand? Geesh! LOL.............

What I dont get is you guys who say you wouldnt take Ingram #15, seem to be dipping into the wishing well of guys unlikely to fall to #15.

Some even saying Mallet when he's projected 2nd rd. Guys objecting but not proposing anything better than what the experts project for us at #15. Wow! LOL...............

Rob,

Another thing while we are sparring today. You keep saying Ingram was injured, as though that were some permanent condition that never healed. He had minor arthroscopic surgery, missed only two games and has long since healed as proven in his fasted 10 yard burst time of all RB's. Continuing to state that as a reason to avoid him doesn't carry a lot of weight. Sure his yards were down, he did miss two games and of couse the coach went easier on him while grooming their next back.

Would you draft Adrian Peterson at 15? He had an ankle injury and broke his collarbone in college, an injury 5 times more serious than Ingrams, to the point the pundits were saying he is too risky to draft in the first round, yet nobody today seems think that injury that has since healed has any relevance.

...I propose that anyone who would like to participate anti up their mock draft like a week before the draft on a said day. We can find a person who will catalog the picks, and then after the draft compaire. Of course there will be no ribbon, or showcase for the most accurate. But perhaps some good natured ribbing at all the mocks that are not close. It would be a cool exercise. I'm in if anybody else is interested. Perhaps if this generates enough buzz. Armando(if he isn't too bust on the radio will join in, and offer some help)

ROTFLMAO@ ALO-CON-US!

The only credibility he has here is as a completely deranged idiot of his own making. LOL..................

@11:47...Ante up their mock...Anti???

WHAT MAKE THE EXPERTS KNOW ANY THING BETTER THAN US ?

NO THING, I READ THESE 3 DAYS IF GREAT POSTS BY ROB,DD,FIN AND OX80 AND I CAN SAY THAT THEY KOW MORE THAN THE EXPERTS WHO MAKE THEIR LIVING OF WORKING WITH THE AGENTS WHO REPRESENT THE PLAYERS AND MAKE MONEY .....DB IS THE ENEMY OF OUR FAN BASE .

That ALO-CON-US kid really needs to have his meds changed. ROTFLMAO! LOL.............

DYING BREED LAST TWO YEARS OF DRAFTS;;;;;


PAT WHITE
MR ODRICK WITH MEATAL IN HIS LEG AND WILL BE WAVIED VERY SOON.


NOW INGRAM WHO HAS KNEE SURGERY AND HIP SURGERY ,PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE

Breed, I have never supported an Ingram pick at 15!!!!!!!! I don't believe we'll have a trade down senario, why? Because if we trade down there really is no valuable player at 15 that someone would trade up for.. If some one were to trade up to our spot what would we get 2-3's. There are no players included to make a pick / player trade since there are no players working at this point. What would be the scenario? Check the trade value chart on bleacherreport.com.

Ingram didn't have hip surgery. He merely had a bruise, a helmet hit him in the hip. Did you ever have a black and blue mark when you were a kid? Thats what he had, a booboo.

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