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The other side of the Carson Palmer coin

There is always another side to the proverbial coin.

When I discuss the interest I've perceived from the Dolphins for Cincinnati quarterback Carson Palmer -- based on conversations I've had with folks within the organization -- I always am very careful to point out this account only applies to Miami's interest.

I cannot tell you exactly what will happen when the lockout is lifted and players are allowed to be traded because I am not certain what the Bengals will do about Palmer. And they also get a vote. Yes, I believe the Bengals have offered small hints here and there they might be willing to part with Palmer for the right price.

But I haven't actually talked to the Bengals, I don't know what the price would be, and I have no clue what the Dolphins would think of that price.

That is the other side of the coin. And Geoff "Butch" Hobson, who was so good at covering the Bengals for so long the team waved the white flag and actually hired him (If you can't beat them, hire them), says the trade winds for Palmer are so still, there are no trade winds.

Not for the third-round pick Dan Marino suggested he would give. Not for anything any of you are willing to part with, based on my reading of your comments.

"... If [the Dolphins] think it’s going to take Dan Marino’s suggested third-round pick, they should take a drug test," Hobson wrote recently. "Mike Brown giving up Palmer for only a third-rounder? Never happen. Brown giving up Palmer period? Maybe less than never."

I sat next to Hobson during the NFL annual meetings in New Orleans. He mentioned more than once to me he thinks Palmer is simply outstanding. He said watching him during practices, he's seen Palmer make every single throw imaginable -- dashing the theory Palmer is too injured and diminished to make a difference any more. He also, on more than one occasion, compared Palmer to Jim Plunkett.

Plunkett, like Palmer, was a former No. 1 overall pick. Plunkett, like Palmer, had his share of struggles with a struggling franchise that drafted him. And Plunkett was traded to the Oakland Raiders where he won a couple of Super Bowl titles.

If that analogy is accurate, Palmer would be exactly the right veteran QB to chase once the NFL labor situation is settled.

I suppose that's the third side of the coin. Um, yeah, the third side of the coin.

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Add in other things Kaep needs to learn before being ready to start. Throw in working with him to change or speed up his release. Then we maybe talking 2 full seasons on the bench before being fully ready to start.

Then that part of the nfl learning doesnt begin until he actually begins seeing the field. So we could be talking 4 full seasons before fully being comfortable as a starter.

Dying...I'm on board with drafting a quarterback for the future. He doesn't have to be the number one guy. I'm just not sold on any of the quarterbacks in this years class. If I was, I would be on the bus.

I think we must solidify some other positions before we go out and draft our future. I don't think we are in a position to spend a first round pick on one this particular year. You made a very nice analogy about a month ago about shoes(I can't remember exactly what it was, maybe you can).

It is just a different philosophy about how, and when to develop you future. Like I have said many times. If any of these guys make believers out of our FO, and they decide to go that route. I fully understand it.

I also understand that for the fan base. There is frustration over the fact that this orginization has failed to develop, or find a quality quarterback in a decade. And that one of these guys could bring hope, and a chance to change that.

We are a lot farther off than most would like to admit I'm afraid...and that sucks. I want my dominant Miami Dolphins back!!!

actually....thanks for explaining....alot of times things are misinterperted or taken out of context because its just black and white without any the real emotion behind the post able to be determined.....

Posted by: kris | April 07, 2011 at 10:06 PM

Kris,

Thanks You Sir, for the cordial response and your understanding. I hope others will learn from it. That my good man, is how ADULTS blog!

PS: Then again, it seems a little hollow. Want to have a couple of beers later and throw some F-Bombs at each other?

DD,

Problem is we most likely will lose both Henne and Thiggy at the end of this season. Waiting until you have no qb is a bad time to begin looking for them.

Especially when you saw it coming.

Odin...FuC% YOU!! You robbed my point! Great post on the last page. You articulated what I was tring to say much better then I did.

DD,

If Kory Sheets can't get into the snap line up because of his blocking not being adequate, no way Taiwan Jones would make it on Sparanos team. He is frail, tooth pick legs, no power. Exciting runner yes but I don't see him taking the punishment at all. That guy has IR written all over him. He'll be running for the sidelines far more than Ginn.

Sorry Darryl,

I was just catching up and I posted that long winded dribble before reading your 10:10 post.

As usual, you said it way better than I and in less words too-LOL! I thought I was making a good post, until I read yours.

At least I know two of us are thinking the same way!

LOL! I'll bet Steeler and Packer fans arent having nearly the conversation we're having about the draft on thier blogs right now. LOL...........

I hate those guys! LOL...............

Dying...2 words for you that scare the pants off defensive coordinators......Tom Brandstander!!!!lol...

Good point.@ 11:18. Did you remember your shoe analogy?

Guys,

Thinking of the complexities of our present situation is why I keep a glass of water and bottle of ibuprophens nearby. LOL.........

Palmer is the best QB out there as far as proven commodities are concerned. A second rounder would be worth it, but because we don't have one this year, a third and fourth this year or a second next year would be well worth the trade. Or this year's fourth and next year's second.

I still am not convinced that Brady Quinn is a bust. He had some good games with the Browns before being traded, and I think they pulled the trigger too fast. That's not to say he'll be great, but he very well still can be. That might be another option for a lower pick as a back-up to see how he developes.

Otherwise, Andrew Luck next year. We'd have to be better at being lucky than good for that to happen.

0x80...I had to get that little jab in. I agree 100 percent about the pass blocking deficiency. It is a huge problem. As far as the injury thing. His foot injury wasn't from a big hit. He stepped on a defender he had ran over(just playin). I don't know if the Phins will take him or not. But if we want speed, and more playmakers. Jones is the guy. Especially if he can be had in later rounds. I don't know if Mayock will be right about Jones. He probably won't. But if we could get this guy in the fifth round. We would have a player that is a threat to take it to the cribb every time he touches the ball. Not a bad deal for a mid to late round guy.

DD,

Yeah I do remember. However, since that time a lot more info has been brought forward regarding these qb's. I like Mallet now because I dont care what year or who the qb is coming out. Extremely few qb's throw the deep ball well.

If you think abouit it, its the ability to throw the deepball well that separates the top 5 qb's from the rest of the pack. Almost any qb can be accurate throwing short passes.

Its Mallet's great proficiency at throwing the deepball that opens my eyes. That seems to be a trai all nfl greats past and present all have in common.

DD,

Seriously, what do I know? Not much...but I can't see Taiwan Jones holding up to the NFL hits. Seriously. I just don't think he will last at all. Maybe, and I do mean maybe, as a retuner. I don't think he is worth the risk. Time will tell but remember my words to applaud me or mock me later....

A lot of Henne's sacks can be blamed on Henne himself. Like I stated earlier, any times I saw Henne walk right into sacks.

He seems to not do pre snaps reads to see where the blitz is coming from. Then he drops back and walk right into the blitzer he should have recognized at the line of scrimmage. That cant be blamed on the line.

I dont think our oline was as horrible as it seemed last season.

There were constantly 7-8 defenders in the run box. Then you had a young qb that didnt reconize most blitzes and walked right into them.

So probably what we had was a good not great oline. That was made to look bad having to consistently face 7-8 defenders in the run box. Plus, a young qb who at times looked totally lost in the pocket in blitz situations.

There was only 1 game last season our oline was absolutely horrible. That was against the Bears when they were dropping to injury like flies.

0x80 and DD,

I was preaching Tawain Jones early on.

Granted one has to take into consideration his lanky or frail build.

However, for the right price, I would take a chance on the guy being an immediate upgrade to our special teams(return game).

Also I could see him contributing right away as a 3rd down back in situations where he won't be asked to do much blocking.

Who knows, he could make Henne's check down tendencies a TEAM STRENGTH-LOL!

0x80...The funny thing is. Odds are the Phins will pass on Jones, because of his blocking deficiencies.(one reason I think Spiller was never a real consideration here) Therefore. If Jones gets drafted to another team. I hope you are right and he breaks his collarbone( I don't wish injury on any player)or is a non-factor. The only players I root for that do not wear Aqua and Orange are my beloved Griz players. Since Jones is an archrival he can suck it if we do not draft him.

Im not sure Henne will ever become the kind of qb that makes defenses pay for the blitz. That's when a qb needs to be a good deepball passer.

Making things worse, during the blitz that when Henne becomes rattled most. He has tough enough time connecting on deep throws when there isnt a blitz.

Guys,

Until we have a qb that can connect with reasonable accuracy on the deep ball it isnt going to matter much who the rb's or recievers are. Defenses will continue to place 7-8 defenders in the box and blitz on passing downs.

We need a deep ball passing specialist here in Miami like yesterday, not tomorrow. We're kidding ourselves if we think bringing in better rb's and recievers will be the single "significant" difference.

I guarantee you all that!

DB,

Henne's pre snap reads were pretty terrible at times.

I'm hoping that will be a MAJOR area of improvement for him.

He needs to watch some film of Farve and Aaron Rodgers(whom I suspect learned it from Farve), working the hard count for "tip offs" on where the blitz will be coming from.

Also, on your ibuprofen comment. You're not kidding!

On the one hand Thigpen and Henne might want to leave after they become free agents.

On the other hand if one of them establishes himself Miami will try to resign him.

On the THIRD HAND(Armando style), if neither one of them establishes themselves this season, there might not be much of a market for their services. Their best option might be staying put!

Talk about thinking yourself into a headache-Aaaaargh!

During the Marino era, our running game sucked so badly teams would place 6 db's in the game even on some running downs and we still couldnt run the ball.

Thats the strategy the 49ers used to whip us in the SB. That's what you call a crappy run blocking oline. LOL.........

MY man crush on Mallet is that he throws the deepball very well. We havent had that since vintage Marino in Miami.

if you have a player like tawain jones he is not going to be your feature back. the mistake the bills made is they drafted spiller at the spot that say, "he is going to be our feature back" or "he is the guy who we are going to rely on heaviest to carry the ball for us." you're not going to do that with a back that size. what difference does it make if jones can block? jones is an offensive weapon, not a blocker. a back like tawain jones is going to be put in the backfield for one thing and one thing only; to run the ball (or catch it and run) i think the conversation about jones being able to block is a bit premature. if i'm a coach i'm using the guy to gain yards for me. why would i want this guy in there blocking?

A great deepball passer will open up our running game. If youve got a great deepball passer you dont have to be a great run blocking oline, just a good on. See the Packers.

LOL. You guys are spending an awful lot of time debating a 4th rd rb.

Henne plays scared when it come to throwing the deepball. For all we know Hartline might be adequate but Henne is afraid to throw the damn ball deep.

So even getting a faster #2wr and seam threat TE pays zero dividends until we also add a qb who's gifted throwing it long.

In the nfl, be a starter just means youve past all of the test to begin your on the job training. LOL..........

Im out. You guys can have your blog back since it seems Im only talking to myself. I dont have to waste time typing to accomplish that. LOL.....................

DB,

I'm not going to argue with you about your statements on Henne. I agree with about 95.9% of them.

I'm not going to blame the offensive line for his deficiencies either. He has them and their not small ones.

However, in all fairness, Carey was a turnstile for most of the season. According to the staticians that Armando always quotes, Carey graded out as almost the worst starting right tackle in the league last year.

Also, when McQuistan was in the game, regardless of the where he lined up, he was worse than Carey.

Berger when healthy was worse than Grove was when he was healthy.

Not making excuses for Henne, I'm through with that. It put up or shut up time for him. I'm just saying that we do have some MAJOR problems that need to addressed along the offensive line.

Odinseye,

With me I just think Im gonna be absolutely sick if Mallet has great career and become yet another that was within our gunsights and we didnt pull the trigger.

if i'm a coach i'm using the guy to gain yards for me. why would i want this guy in there blocking?

Posted by: dm1dolphan | April 08, 2011 at 12:03 AM


Well said if I do say so myself. I mean it's not like we got Dan Henning as an offensive coordinator anymore.

You ever notice how Daboll tailored his offense around Josh Cribbs as opposed to Peyton Hillis?

Good post Dm1!!!!

Odinseye,

It seems for the deer, when we have the rifle in our hands, it just regular normal feeding time. We're always afraid to pull the trigger, but we'll trap an oppossum in a heartbeat.

And spend $50 million dollars on the traps. LOL.........

dm1dolphan...In any Parcells style of running back. If that player couldn't block. He never got to see the field.(I would have thought a player like Sheets would have been scouted better)If Sparano, and Ireland follow this blueprint. Then Jones has no chance to be a Phin. If the 2 decide to be their"own men" and stray from the Parcellian Doctrine. Then you could be right, and they may just see a playmaker that adds a dynamic we do not have.

The other thing with Jones. We don't know if he can block. He never had to do it in College. He may be able to figure it out. Like you said we don't need him to be a blocker, just a playmaker. Unfortunatley it doesn't work that way.

With me I just think Im gonna be absolutely sick if Mallet has great career and become yet another that was within our gunsights and we didnt pull the trigger.

Posted by: DyingBreed | April 08, 2011 at 12:17 AM


OMG! Don't even type that-LOL!

While we disagree on Mallet, still, I'll hold your head up while your puking if you'll hold mine!

I'm still not over us passing on Brees for Daunte Fukking Culpepper!!!!

DD,

Problem with a non blocking rb, when the opponent scouts you and knows this. He'll blitz every running play because he knows your qb wont check out of the run play into a pass play.

How can the qb check out of the running play into a pass play when he knows that his rb in the game is a great liability in pass protection.

did anyone hear that mikel leshoure is starting to narrow the gap between himself and mark ingram. the thought now is ingram could possibly drop towards the end of the first round and leshoure can end up moving up into the: end of the first round. it is interesting to see how the amount of time between the end of the season, the combine and draft day affects the status of many of these players; both positively and negatively.

If you have a rb in the game that cant pass block the defense knows it to. Thats why they'll show nearly all out blitz at the line.

If you still try and run its probably for a loss. If you check into a pass play that rb will get your qb killed.

None blocking rb = Total advantage defense.

How can the qb check out of the running play into a pass play when he knows that his rb in the game is a great liability in pass protection.

Posted by: DyingBreed | April 08, 2011 at 12:25 AM


Audible to a screen pass or better yet, any pass play that has your RB swinging out to the flat as a safety valve.

That's one way to make them pay for blitzing. You don't always have to be going downtown to beat the blitz.

Dan Henning seemed impervious to this.

Daboll on the other hand knows this all to well,........I think.

I HOPE?

Awwwwwwwwwww.......never mind!

dmi,

Im getting off of the rb 1st rd train because it wont force 7-8 defender out of the run box in 2011. It's looking like if we do get Palmer, a qb that can throw the deep ball and force 7-8 out of the box. We may well over pay for guy who gives us 3yrs max of upper echelon service.

We need a young qb who can already throw the deepball well to develop behind Palmer for 2-3yrs. Best applicant I see in this draft as far as deepball throwing proficiency is Mallet.

Dying...Absolutley. It handcuffs you as far as your options. If the defense knows you back can't block. They are going to scheme around this fact. I always pick on Spiller, because he is a prime example. Preseason, he was a world beater. Until game 3 when it was as close to a real game as possible. The Redskins sent Orakpo on a blitz, and Spiller not only didn't put a touch on him. He went the wrong way. It isn't just about knowing how to block, but understanding the protections. Anyway, the quarterback got crushed, and threw a pick six.

Go to game 1. Misi smoked him twice. One sack, one pressure. From that point on. Spiller was relegated to a few carries, and return duties. Money well spent on the 10th pick. He may get it, and end up a very good back. He gets a rookie pass just like them all. But if he cannot learn to block his position. All of that talent, and speed will be wasted on a few carries here and there.

DB @ 12:25,
if you're smart, you use that to your advantage. if i have a back that can't block and i'm not using him to block and i put him into the game i may run a screen to him or i may just throw a quick slant. again, when you're calling plays on offense and defense it's like a chess match; or, at least, it should be. in 2010 it was more like we handed our playbook to the opossing team before the game.
so, if i'm scouting a team i'm looking for tendencies for them to key on certain plays with certain personnel. i put jones in; they think he's running the ball because he can't block. i call a different play. i use that to my advantage because, if i do it often enough, the defense doesn't know if he's running it or we are going somewhere else. you can run different plays from the same offensive set. you need to. otherwise, the defense will know what play you're calling before you even call it. hmmmm. that sounds familiar.

odinseye,

Yeah that could work a time or two. But when the opponent sees youre a one or two trick pony they'll prepare for it. Once they do those plays will go for long pick 6's because the defense will lie in wait. LOL.........

dm1,

There's only so much you can do. Just like I just posted to odinseye. Those one or two things dc's will key on and have a guy lying in wait. As soon as you do it, it'll end up in a pick 6.

For one thing, when a team blitzes you better have a really good qb back there to give yourself half a chance against it. Having a rb back there that cant pass block only lowers your chance of success against the blitz.

Ingram, Leshoure, Ingram, Leshoure...its all just predraft hype, smokescreen. Believe none of it. If the GM's feel Ingram has really completely healed, he will go first, if not, either Leshoure or Williams could go first. Without having the advantage of seeing the private workouts or interviews, we are left with the media rumor mill foder to cloud our judgement.

anyway, there's an assumption he can't block because he wasn't asked to do so in college. a lot of people don't think cam newton and some of the other quarterbacks who didn't take snaps from under center will need 2 years to adjust to a pro style offense. other don't think it will take that long.
if you watched the clips of jones there is one play, in particular, that impressed me and it was the one where his qb was hit, fumbled the ball and it was recovered by the defense. jones came from behind and ran down the defender before he was able to score. that says a lot to me. that says he doesn't give up on plays. so, it is assumed that he won't be able to block in the nfl. however, like i said, i want the guy used has a weapon. he's in the low 4's with his speed and he has a tremendous ability to make people miss.

The same things you guys see on Sunday and go "wtf were they thinking" are some of the same things youre posting as options for our team here. But I guess youre not realizing it at this time.

dm1,

The nfl is an awful terrible place for a guy to be just beginning his blocking 101 courses.

Get Carson Palmer.

Give Mike Brown a 1st round pick for him.

How many 1st QB's turned into busts?

Palmer is proven, and has a good 5 years left in him.

Get Palmer and give this young Fins team a chance to win a SB.

And you have 5 years to find his replacement.

dm1,

Saying we don't know if Jones can block because he wasn't asked to is like saying we don't know if rocks can fly because we didn't ask them. Look at the guy, I've seen spiders with thicker legs, the scouting reports say he has no lower body strength, can't break tackles. It's a foregone conclusion Jones won't be able to block in the NFL. He'd get killed trying. I can see him as a returner or complimentary back making a few plays, but eventually I see him ending up like Pat White against Pittsburgh, unconscious and scared out of the game for good, thats if he wasn't permanently crippled by the hit.

RB's can sort of get away with not being blockers on the college level. The level of talent they face most of the time isnt nearly as great. Nor or the defensive schemes and complexities nearly as great as what they'll see on the next level.

Remember, on the nfl level they dont have to split time between going to class and learning football. Nfl players have all the time they need to eat, breath and live nothing but pure football.

MJZ,

Really? A 1st rd'er for Palmer? Are you a Bengals fan? LOL...........

DB,
you're right. i guess no team ever uses a four wide set with a tight end in line to block with no backs. that would definitely tip the defense that you're passing.

MJZ,

Maybe we can lure back Cam Cameron too?

Facing 7 and 8 guys in the box and the blitz is something every young quarterback has to overcome.

Every DC worth his salt employs this tactic against inexperienced QB's.

I think it's these two things more than anything else that will deternine whether or not Henne has a future ANYWHERE in the NFL.

While he will have to develop touch and accuracy on the deep ball, I don't believe this is the best or only way to beat blitzes and an overstuffed boxes.

On the contrary. I believe in misdirections, screens and the QB/WR being on the same page making hot reads.

I like going deep with a well timed play action on 2nd and short. 3rd and manageable or my favorite, 1st and 10 at midfield when the run game is dominating.

Any way you slice it, Henne is going to sink or swim on his ability to beat the box and the blitz.

There's more than one way to stab a p u s s y.

Or is that skin a cat.....................?

0x80,
he's a bigger back than ingram and people are suggesting we take him with the #15 in the first.

...Jones isn't the only guy that wasn't asked to block in College. Ask a good portion of Rookie backs what the toughest part of the transition is between college and the pros. To a man they will say learning pass protections. Look at some of Ingrams early draft projections(after his Heisman season) The biggest issue, blocking. Wasn't asked to do it. Saban did him a favor this season and made him do some blocking. But is still a concern.Most of these guys even if they were in pro style offenses will be asked to do things on the blocking front they have never done, or aren't used to. So just because Jones didn't do it in college doesn;t neccesarily mean he won't be able to at the next level. This goes for a lot of these backs as well

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