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The other side of the Carson Palmer coin

There is always another side to the proverbial coin.

When I discuss the interest I've perceived from the Dolphins for Cincinnati quarterback Carson Palmer -- based on conversations I've had with folks within the organization -- I always am very careful to point out this account only applies to Miami's interest.

I cannot tell you exactly what will happen when the lockout is lifted and players are allowed to be traded because I am not certain what the Bengals will do about Palmer. And they also get a vote. Yes, I believe the Bengals have offered small hints here and there they might be willing to part with Palmer for the right price.

But I haven't actually talked to the Bengals, I don't know what the price would be, and I have no clue what the Dolphins would think of that price.

That is the other side of the coin. And Geoff "Butch" Hobson, who was so good at covering the Bengals for so long the team waved the white flag and actually hired him (If you can't beat them, hire them), says the trade winds for Palmer are so still, there are no trade winds.

Not for the third-round pick Dan Marino suggested he would give. Not for anything any of you are willing to part with, based on my reading of your comments.

"... If [the Dolphins] think it’s going to take Dan Marino’s suggested third-round pick, they should take a drug test," Hobson wrote recently. "Mike Brown giving up Palmer for only a third-rounder? Never happen. Brown giving up Palmer period? Maybe less than never."

I sat next to Hobson during the NFL annual meetings in New Orleans. He mentioned more than once to me he thinks Palmer is simply outstanding. He said watching him during practices, he's seen Palmer make every single throw imaginable -- dashing the theory Palmer is too injured and diminished to make a difference any more. He also, on more than one occasion, compared Palmer to Jim Plunkett.

Plunkett, like Palmer, was a former No. 1 overall pick. Plunkett, like Palmer, had his share of struggles with a struggling franchise that drafted him. And Plunkett was traded to the Oakland Raiders where he won a couple of Super Bowl titles.

If that analogy is accurate, Palmer would be exactly the right veteran QB to chase once the NFL labor situation is settled.

I suppose that's the third side of the coin. Um, yeah, the third side of the coin.

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dm1,

Its just very difficult to find playing time for a rb that cant block. When he's in the backfield the defense can show blitz with very little fear you'll audible into a pass play.

That would require the rb that cant pass block to have to pass block. Or should I say do his best impersonation of a bullfighter. LOL.........

The problem with Henne is that he chucks the ball, he's a chucker. He rarely leads his receivers into open territory, he waits a second to long and chucks it at them where they have to wait or backtrack for it and then rarely have a chance to avoid getting creamed as soon as they catch it. He is a tease QB, he has an arm that can impress, but what I have consistently seen is that he as 1 promising quarter followed by four bad ones, and he is a constant tease making you think he will get it together for all four quarters yet never will. Henne is like the girl who will show you some thigh, but go cold on you the moment you show interest.

i think part of the problem with our limited way of thinking about the plays we run on offense is because of "mr vanilla" himself; dan henning. the other thing is we didn't have the players, or the talent, to run certain plays and, when we did, they didn't work because the speed wasn't there. when you have a back who runs a 1.4 split he has explosive speed that can get him to the second level before anyone even has a chance to lay a finger on him and, when he gets to the 2nd level, he has the ability to make people miss. we need to get ourselves out of the "defeatest mindset" that we put ourselves into because of the past several hundred (seems like it) seasons of watching our offense being incapable of running plays that other teams run successfully.

DB,

I agree with your pick six comment.

However, I also agree with Dm1's chess match comment.

If you catch them in the blitz and they have a defender setting on your safety valve, chances are they're in man coverage.

Then it's back to Henne learning where to go. In man coverage I'd be throwing it up in the general direction of our 50 million dollar man.

Just for the record DB. The conversation we're having right now, is EXACTLY what I love about football and why I'm a football fan.

odinseye,

The two most commonly used tactics to beat a blitz Henne as of yet does well.

Great qb's beat blitzes with the quick slant pass and beat them with the deep ball. Henne was about as equally terrible throwing the quick slant as he was with his touch throwing the deep ball.

Those are the two thing most commonly used by the great qb's to beat the blitz.

dm1, he is bigger and slower, doesn't read blocks or hit the hole as fast and swift as Ingram. I've seen the latest reports casting doubt on Ingrams injury, but I think its all just smokescreen. He had the fastests 10 burst time of all backs at the combine, which tells me he must be full healed. The 2009 Ingram was a beast, getting most of his yards after contact. I realized 2010 wasn't as productive after arthroscopic surgery, but that is something that heals well after a few months, he was coming on at the end of the season, its not like he tore an acl. Obviously I can't say for sure, but if GM's feel he is fully healed, he will go first.

odin @ 1:05,
i second your last comment.

odinseye,

The thing about the chess match theory is Henne thinks to slow and wont have enough time to pull it off even if he does figure it out. LOL..........

0x80,
who's bigger and slower?

Im all for giving Henne a chance, I just dont think the guy's thinks fast enough on his feet to ever be a great nfl qb. I do believe he could be a perrenial middle of the pack starter at best.

DD,

Take a good look at Jones, I can't see any way in hell he will be able to block in the NFL. Here is a scouting report on him:


Strengths:


Tremendously productive FCS running back. An explosive runner. Gets up to full speed quickly. Shows good vision and patience.


Weaknesses:


Extensive injury history. Missed time in high school with an ankle injury. Missed time in 2008 with a broken leg. Played through various injuries in 2009 (sports hernia, shoulder; hip flexor). Missed final two games of career with broken foot. Doesn’t have a great build for a NFL running back, would benefit from adding some weight. Level of competition is a concern. Enters draft following junior year; a rare and confusing decision for a FCS player.

Henne has the tools. I just dont believe Henne is a very fast thinker. You have to be when youre in the line of fire in the nfl. Just having the tools isnt enough.

I have to as of yet to see Henne do any effective improvising. All of the greats do it many time a season.

Leshoure is a little bigger and a little slower than Ingram.

Odin...Well said @ 1:05. After a bummer of a day. Nothing like arguing the merits of a possible mid round pick with a bunch of crazed football lunatics! Thanks fellas.

0x80
i'm not advocating taking the guy in the first rd. i think everyone is factoring his injury history and his small school experience into his 4th rd projection. he's not going to be an every down back but, with his speed, he will be a welcomed weapon on offense when he is in there. put him on the line and run him deep. how many linebackers will keep up with him?

Those are the two thing most commonly used by the great qb's to beat the blitz.

Posted by: DyingBreed | April 08, 2011 at 01:06 AM


I'll give you the slant, but the deep ball?

I'm not buying that. MOST times, the deep routes during a blitz are broken off into hot reads(comebacks/quick outs/slants). Not enough time for the deep routes to develop.

I'll agree the Great ones beat the blitz though. That's what makes them great. Unfortunately, we're talking Henne and that's exactly what he has to do to take the next step. He has to learn to beat the blitz.

also, like i stated in a previous post debating the talenst of tawain jones:
if we were looking at a situation where he averaged 4.8 or 5.2 ypc when rushing for 1700 plus yards it would be a different story but it's hard to ignore a back who averaged over 7 ypc in the last two seasons and had the number of carries he had. guys with that type of average usually carried the ball about 10 times for the season and had one long run for a td to pad their numbers.

I have to agree with Dm1. I think some of you guys have been watching Parcells and Henning for far to long.

3rd down backs are called 3rd down backs because of their ability to make plays in the passing game and their speed to take it to the house.

Anybody that thinks a 3rd down back is an automatic liability has simply been watching Parcells and Henning for way to long.

Let them blitz all day long. Especially if we have a 4.3 speed receiver, Marshall, A shifty guy like Bess in the slot and a 3rd down back with 4.3 speed that can take it to the house on any given play.

This is the kind of dynamic offense that Ross is calling for.

You guys that have gotten way to used to Parcells and Henning football better fasten your seat belts!!!!

My messages are disappearing after pressing post! geez

dm1,

What I'm saying is its not likely this FO will draft Jones. If Kory Sheets, a speedster who is built sturdier than Jones can't crack the line up because as Sparano says, can't block for shttt, then no way Jones will be able to block better than Sheets.

0x80...Where did you find that scouting report? All of them are different for each player. If we scanned them all we could find a different opinion, or presentation of the facts for each. It depends on how each scouting service rates the player. I can only speak from personal experience, seeing him with my own eyes 3 times. The guy is incredible. We will see come draft day. Some team is going to get a tremendous talent at a very good price. Lets see what he does at his pro day. He is projected to run the fastest 40 time by any back this year. Ingrams 10 yard burst was 1.6. I bet Jones is around 1.4

Am I the only one who remembers last year? We were the laughing stock of the NFL! Not because of Henne, Brown, or Rickey. Because of Dan Henning, our Offensive Coordinator! Defences knew what play was going to be run before our Offence broke from. Their huddle! No one, not even the great Dan Marino, could have won very much like that. And, the Wildcat was useless! It didn't fool anybody. So, our Offence sucked...badly...due to the coaching and play calling. And so, we still don't know what we have in Henne. Because no one's put him in a position to actually suceed. That's why you don't trade him yet! That's why he competes with whomever is brought in , rookie or free agent. To do otherwise, is just plain bad management! And, the guys we've got managing aren't the sharpest tacks as it is! For crying out loud, stop wanting them to be more stupid than they already are!

odin, Tony Sparano is still the coach!

You guys!

Dan Henning had Lousaka Polite on the field in our two minute offense last year.

Them days are over, thank God Almighty.

3rd down backs are not 3rd down backs because of their ability to pass block.

The days of 1960's style football in Miami are........well.....a thing of the past. FINALLY.

DD,

I looked at about 3 scouting reports, just google it. They all state the same weaknesess. DD, the guy is frail, plus an entire history of injuries since high school. I wouldn't take him in the 7th! Just look at the guy and you will envision Pat White getting knocked out against Pitt lying cold on the field.

0x80,
i'm hoping you're assessment of the situation isn't correct but it is always a possibility. i'm hoping they are serious about getting the speed on offense they need and utilizing the talent they have to make the offense more dangerous and keep the defense on the heels.
it will be interesting to see what daboll comes up with but, i can tell you, if it doesn't appear to be a change from the past few seasons i will not be a happy camper. it's very frustrating when you see other offenses execute their plays; baltimore running the same screen successfully about 7 times is an example, and your team's offense can't do the same. it's also frustrating when it seems like your team's offense isn't as complicated as the one your local high school team uses.

DD,

Haven't you learned from the John Avery experiment? Ot the Ted Ginn experiment? Just speed doesn't work, you still need a football player. Sure Jones is swift and fast, but no way do I see this guy holding up to the hits he will take in the NFL. Mark my words.

Taiwan Jones is a suckers bet. I wouldn't touch him. If he lasts more than two seasons, I still say he will miss more games than he plays due to injuries.

Sheets didn't crack the line up when SpOrano was bowing down to Henning and Parcells.

Parcells quit, Henning retired(got fired)again.

Ross let SpOrano know what time it is by chasing after Harbaugh and now calling for playmakers.

Daboll knows the same old same old ain't going to cut it no more in Miami!

then why even talk about guys like derrick locke or dion lewis? there are teams who have both of these guys on their boards and are going to take them and utilize their talents to benefit their teams. neither one is very big and neither can take the punishment of carrying the ball every down but their quickness and ability to make people miss in the open field make them very dangerous. i don't think teams are looking at these guys and saying, "we're staying away from them. yeah, they have talent but they are too small to play in this league." a smart team with a good coach will take these guys and know exactly how to use their talents.

0x80....Oooh goin Pat White on me? That's messed up! I thought we were friends...lol
That was a vicious hit. I thought Pat White was going to take a dirt nap after that one. I asked you about the scouting stuff because I haven't read anything about Jones. My opinions are just from my experiences watching him, and the You Tube Video that I think I mentioned to you a few weeks ago. I got a chuckle last night because Mayock brought it up. It was worth it because I think it brought about a good debate. As with DB earlier on the Mallet Subject. I think we can go round and round about it. It's okay to disagree.

I don't think Sparano or Ireland were the total puppets that some of you seem to think. Sure, I can't know for sure. But listening to Sparano himself talk about Sheets, it really does seem like Sparano himself wasn't happy enough with Sheets blocking to put him in, thats the impression I got.

with the 15th pick in the 2011 nfl draft the miami dolphins select ray finkle jr from north bumblef*&k university.
mel kiper,"well it really wasn't the best way for the dolphins to go. finkle was an undersized water boy with poor speed in college and he won't be able to deliver the gatorade fast enough to provide relief to the players on the sidelines. they really needed to do something about the leg cramps and, with this pick, they didn't solve the problem."

Sure DD, but I've read several scouting reports on Jones,they all pretty much have the same assessment, fast, a speedster that can make plays, but absolutely no lower body strength, no blocking ability, and a history of steady injuries going back to high school. Just because the girl looks like a fox doesn't mean she would be a good wife!

0x80,

Parcells is gone and Ross is speaking loud and clear. He wants dynamic, speedy playmakers.

SpOrano may still be the coach but it won't be your Grand Father's Tony SpOrano.

0x,
with production like that (1213 yds, 7.5 yd avg. 15 td's 2009, 1742 yds, 7.9 yd avg. 15 td's 2010) maybe he should have been injured more often.

I got to go. I'll finish with this.

If nothing else, Tawain Jones, for the price will be a steal for our special teams. I would draft him on the strength of that alone.

If it turns out he contributes in a limited capacity as a third down back, then that's just gravy.

WE NEED SPEED!!!!

dm1,

Every single scouting report says he did that against inferior talent. Its already a big step from college to pros, but from what Taiwan is used to running against it will be a giant leap and he will find himself against speedy incredible hulks.

Time will tell. My take is Taiwan will not stay healthy for very long in the NFL.

Just because the girl looks like a fox doesn't mean she would be a good wife!

Posted by: 0x80 | April 08, 2011 at 01:50 AM


I don't want a wife, I've NEVER been married.

I want a girl that knows how to SCORE!!!!

odin,

We have Kory Sheets for returns. The players say he is the speediest guy on the team. Sparano says the guy can fly. Of course he spent last year year on IR. I expect it won't be long before Taiwan ends up on IR too.

We got nowhere with Avery and Ginn. We don't need to learn that lesson again.

dm1 and dd,

Take notes, copy my comments, I will accept full responsibility. I really wouldn't touch TJ even in round 7.

..0x80, Odin, dm1dolphan, DB...anyone else. It has been a slice. Catch you fine folks later. Have a good night.

I'm outta here too. To be continued...

Yes finally people who agree with me that Palmer sucks. He is on the wrong side of thirty and hes not a winner. His decision making has been so poor. I would much rather have Henne back for another year then see Palmer (another transition Qb). This is the year for Henne to put up or shut up. He hasnt proven himself yet and this is his last chance to do so. Then you will have a big enough body of work to evaluate him. I would just hate to see us get rid of him and see him have great success somewhere else where they can develope him. Its the same old song in Miami as far as that goes.

It is wonderful to consider lesbian activities.

I am bummed Kris is not here. He called me out very early in this. well just to document my response.

Marino did endorse Henne, and believes that he has the abilities, similar to my belief.

that being said, I never could guarentee that he will become the guy I think he can be. Neither can Marino.

So as due diligence, you ALWAYS need to be looking for an upgrade somehow and someway. so bringing Palmer in here makes the team better since he brings experience and is a guy that will compete and see if Henne is good enough to beat him out.

The fact is if Palmer really does not suck! Then he is a player to have on the team, as a starter or a backup.

So admitting bringing Palmer here is a good idea, DOES NOT mean that Henne is not good enough. It means he could be another tool to making the team better as a whole.

Marino knows the Dolphins aren't going into the season without a veteran QB. PERIOD! That's why he said he wouldn't give up more than a 3rd round pick. Heck, you people act like that's a ringing endorsement. Well, it isn't. It's very likely that this year's picks won't be available for trades. Thus, we are talking about next year's picks. A third rounder for a QB? That's saying Palmer isn't worth very much if you ask me.

I'm not saying Palmer is the right dude to start for the Dolphins, but they sure need a veteran QB other than Henne. However, I'm sure Palmer wouldn't want to come if he doesn't have a great chance to start.

Imagine that we draft Newton or Mallet to groom for a year, trade next year's 3rd for Palmer and start him, and keep Henne as a backup. That would be a big improvement at that position.

Plus, we could still get a couple of RBs in the 3rd and 4th rounds of this year's draft, a speedy WR/kick returner in the 5th and a special teams LB in the 6th round.

LOOK LADIES ONE THING I DO KNOW IS THE BENGALS DON'T GET RID OF GOOD PLAYERS.

CARSON PALMER IS NOT EVEN THE 2nd PLAYER TO THREATING TO RETIRE IF THEY DON'T GET TRADED.

BOTH STILL PLAYED FOR THE BENGALS.

THE BENGALS DON'T PLAY THAT.

SO IF THEY ARE WILLING TO GIVE HIM UP THEY KNOW SOMETHING

SOUNDS LIKE DONTAE ALL OVER AGAIN.

ARMANDO:

YON DON'T AGREE WITH TRACY474 @ 1:33 AM.

WE REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HENNE HAS BECAUSE OUR PLAY CALLING WAS REALLY THAT BAD.

WE ALWAYS BLAME THE QB BECAUSE HE'S UNDER CENTER BUT I FEEL IT IS THE COACH JOB TO PUT PLAYERS IN THE RIGHT PLACE.

BUT OR COACHES DID A POOR JOB AND THREW OUR TEAM UNDER THE BUS.

SPARANO SAID ONE TIME "IT WASN'T PLAY THE PLAY CALLING IT WAS THE EXACUTION"

PLAIN AND SIMPLE HE WAS OUT COACH EVERY GAME WIN OR LOST.

DO ANYBODY DISAGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT

Here is a good read on how success is measured in the draft by a couple of current NFL execs.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/39145/good-draft-hit-rates-lower-than-you-think

Justin, I have been preaching that for a long time to the Henne haters. In detail, most people here know it and can't stand me talking about it anymore. :)

Not just coaching, but the O-Line really struggled. I don't care how good your QB is, for him to be successful he needs a consistant O-line. Ours last year could not open holes for the RB, or protect the QB consistantly.

Justin....

While I agree that our play calling last year certainly had and effect on Henne's performance, fact is... Yes, I do disagree with that statement and here is why...

Consider the Baltimore Blunder by Henne. Neither Dan Henning nor Tony Sparano could have ran out on the field and made that 3 yard throw to a wide open Fasano in the end zone. That was ALL Henne....

Consider the Steelers game... Even though Miami has been given a raw call deal, they still had 2+ minutes on the clock when they got the ball back. Sorry my friend, But that is where the big dogs hunt, and the puppies crap on the floor. Henne looked awful on that drive. And that is only ONE of the 2 minute drills I saw him blunder.

Consider the lack of TD passes. Yes, I can see how bad play calling would cause a drive to stall (and they did many times), but what about the ones that didn't? What about the ones where Henne would throw 7 yards short of a TD to an out of bounds receiver? What about not throwing a high jumper to Marshall, you know? The 6'4” receiver we paid $50 million and 2 second round picks for, the trade that has this teams back against the wall for 2 consecutive drafts? I did not see Henne throw up a fade to the back corner (a staple throw for the good QB's) to Marshall, the guy who can actually TAKE the ball on that play ...one time.... He would try throwing "Darts" instead of trusting his receivers to do their jobe.

What about taking sacks at the worst possible time? Henning and Sparano can't MAKE the kid throw the ball away or beat a blitz... that is 100% up to Henne.

Now, grant this. Henne is EXTREMLY young. And can learn from much of this. I for one am in full agreement that Henne deserves another shot. But... He don't get the keys to the car until he proves he is the best driver. That MUST be that plan until he proves to the team and us that he can have a bad day and bounce back a winner... Justin, Henne's team lost all but one game in THEIR OWN HOUSE last year... That don't happen to Big Ben, That don't happen to Brady or Manning... That don’t happen to Breese or Rivers... and before ANY of those guys would let it happen... they would try something different, like trusting their receivers to do their job, While they (the QB) started anticipating some of his throws... something that Henne is AWFUL at.

Do YOU think this is a fair assessment...?

Justin,

I don't totally agree with that statement. I agree playcalling was the worst in the league (bar none, save maybe Cleveland, and, oh, by the way we have their OC). And the line sucked (mid-season on). And coaching overall was probably 29, 30th in the league.

However, I can give you at least 5 plays that showed Henne didn't help anyone (himself, his team, or the horrendous coaching). One is missing on a wide open Brian Hartline. Hartline had steps on his defender, should of been hit running in stride (almost every other QB in the league makes that play) for a TD. Instead, he overthrew the guy 20 yards or so and it was incomplete. There's a bunch more of those too (to Fasano, the backs, Marshall, etc.).

So to say Henne had no help giving away the season isn't accurately describing the meltdown that was 2010. The guy couldn't even get a 1st down when the team really needed it (and that's on heart and determination).

I blame them all (pox on all their houses). And definitely Henne was on the field, touched the ball more than anyone else, and didn't do anything special with it (like you guys like to say he can make all the throws) when he got it. Let's not totally exclude Henne from blame. He doesn't deserve all the blame, but he should get his share (see Aaron Rodgers for an example of a QB who willed his team to win on several occasions almost single-handedly, even with a horrible line and play from the offense).

Pointless conversation. Lets just say for arguments sake that Miami wants Palmer and he would be a great addition. That said...Mike Brown will NEVER trade Palmer. He will own this team for far longer than Palmer will be playing football, so his mentality is if he gives in to this guy, what about the next? And the next? And the next? Mike Brown does not care about getting picks, he cares about how he runs his operation. Now how he has been able to convince himself that his decisions have been accurate is beyond me, and not really relevant.

The reality is that Mike Brown would die than give in to the demands of one of his pieces of meat. Even if it would vastly improve his team, his pride is just too big.

Next topic....

ODIN,

you can't be a car mechanic AS YOU WANT US TO BELIVE ..YOUR POSTS LAST NIGHT SPEAKS OF WELL EDUCATED PERSON .... TELL US THE TRUTH ,WE DEMAND THE TRUTH .

POIZEN,


HENNE HATERS WILL GO TO HELL WHEN THEY DIE .NO HEAVENS FOR THEM .I ASK GOD TO FORGIVE THEIR MISGUIDED THOUGHT AND IDEAS .

Then I imagine where Carson wants to play or what he wants to do would be..... the 4th side of the coin????

Armando, why don't you go ahead and propose to Carson Palmer with this man crush you have on him. The guy has sucked the last two or three years. And if that nut Mike Brown thinks he is worth 1st or 2nd round draft choice he smoked too much dope in college. Just insane would rather draft one of the projects and see how Henne progresses this year. Maybe bring in McNabb or someone to push him.

DC & DEREK

I AGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING WITH THIS ALSO IN MIND.

HE (MUST) GO THROUGH HIS PROGRESSIONS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT WOULD START OR END BUT HE MUST GO THROUGH IT.

HE HAS MADE BAD THROWS WE ALL ADMIT TO THAT BUT HE MADE GREAT ONES ALSO.

THE QBs THAT WERE MENTION ARE ON PASSING TEAMS THAT GOES MULTIPLE WIDEOUT SETS.

THAT GIVES THIER QB THE ABLITY TO PICK AND CHOOSE THE BEST OPTION.

WE ONLY DO 3 WIDE THOSE TEAMS ALSO USE THIER TEs.

THIER COACHES ALLOW THEM TO MAKE PLAYS AND ALWAYS DID.

SPARANO DON'T ALLOW CHAD TO TAKE HIS SHOTS.

WE THREW ALL OF 10 DEEP PASSES THIS WHOLE YEAR.

WE HIT ON ONE.

WE HAVE 40-50 OFFENSIVE PLAYS PER GAME 25 OF THOSE ARE RUNS UNLESS WE ARE UP BY 3 THE WHOLE GAME THEN THAT NUMBER GOES UP TO 30-40.

WE CAN'T EXPECT HIM TO BE HOT IF THEY TAKE HIM OFF THE FIELD FOR THE WILDCAT.

HE THREW A FEW 300 YARD GAMES AND ALMOST HAD A 400 YARD GAME.

ITS ON THE COACH TO GET IT RIGHT AND "LET THE DOGS OUT."

IT'S LIKE HAVING A DOG THAT DON'T BITE WHY HAVE THE DOG.


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