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Why is Vernon getting more snaps than Shelby, Jordan?

Sometimes coaches see things through a different prism than the rest of us. They see things through the prism of the truth. They see things through the prism of motivating a player. They see things with an eye on the future. They see things after watching and studying game tape.

Well, we cannot account for the part about motivation and the future agenda.

But we all watch the games. We can look at the All-22 tape available on the Internet. And thanks to ProFootballFocus.com, we have the ability to see grades from a tape study of games from eyes with no agenda.

And that's why I was kind of curious on Tuesday when Dolphins coach Joe Philbin was asked about the play of Olivier Vernon. Vernon, Miami's starting right end, didn't really factor in the Cleveland game because Joe Thomas generally erased him from view. And although he didn't play a renown tackle against Indianapolis, he only collected an assisted tackle and half-a-sack against the Colts.

That's not a lot of production so far. And judging that limited production, Philbin said this:

“I think he’s doing a good job," Philbin said. "I don’t see the same things. He’s playing hard. He’s playing sound. I think he’s improving. I see some good things. Obviously we anticipate there will be more production as the season goes on. We think he’s giving us a good effort and has played well."

Quick Dolphins In Depth quiz: Mando has said many times there is activity and accomplishment. Do they equal each other?

Answer: Activity does not equal accomplishment.

Any NFL player can play hard. I'd say a majority do. But that is merely activity. To win, one must accomplish something. On defense, one must tackle, or sack, or intercept, or fumble cause, or fumble recover, or gobble blockers to create opportunities for teammates.

Playing hard is good but playing hard without accomplishing at least one of those is just activity.

And the reason I bring this up is because witnessing the games and using the tape grades from PFF, it's obvious Vernon isn't doing a whole lot while other Dolphins defensive ends are producing more with fewer opportunities.

To wit:

Vernon is the No. 48 rated defensive end in the NFL, per ProFootballFocus. He's had 84 pass rush snaps in two games and managed five total pressures and that .5 sack. He has that assisted tackle in the two games combined.

Miami also has the No. 3 rated defensive end in the NFL, per ProFootballFocus ... Expected right? Well, not so fast. That No. 3 rated player is not Cameron Wake.

It's Derrick Shelby.

(Wake, with 2.5 sacks and six QB hits, is the No. 17 rated defensive end, according to PFF).

But I digress.

Back to Shelby ... He is a backup for Miami. He has only 20 pass rush snaps in two games. And in that short amount of playing time he has three solo tackles, an assist, two sacks, and two forced fumbles. Those are official statistics from the Dolphins. PFF also credits him with four total QB pressures.

So Shelby has some 60 fewer snaps than Vernon but much, much more producton.

“He’s very technically sound, a very good fundamental football player," Philbin said of Shelby. "He keeps his shoulders square. He has his hands where they are supposed to be. He’s smart and instinctive. He’s done a really nice job. I really like what he’s done."

Well, yeah!

The question is if OV is producing at his current rate and Shelby is producing at his rate, how long before Shelby starts getting more opportunities?

Furthermore, rookie Dion Jordan is also doing more with less. Jordan also has 20 total pass rush snaps and has two tackles, a sack, and three total pressures. He is the No. 13 rated defensive end in ProFootballFocus's ratings.

Now, I understand limiting Jordan the last couple of games. He's still coming back from that shoulder issue, he's catching up after missing much of the preseason, and he's a raw, young player that needs grooming.

But how long will he and Shelby be allowed to bang on the door of the starting job before someone answers? And even if you don't want to upset the order of things with Vernon as the starter, how long can the Dolphins continue to give more plays to a less productive player?

These are important questions this week because the Atlanta Falcons have the ability to throw the football about as well as anyone in the NFL. But they also offer the grand opportunity to give up sacks and strip sacks and possibly scores because both their offensive tackles are, in a word, atrocious in pass blocking so far this season.

In other words, the Dolphins will have opportunities to hit quarterback Matt Ryan on Sunday.

A lot. 

So do they give those opportunities to a player who has produced less so far? Or do they give more opportunities to players who are so far earning more snaps but not getting them?   

Comments

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It's really hard to question how we are utilizing our Defensive players at this point. 6 sacks and 3 picks vs Weedon was big.

Sealing a tight game late in the 4th against Luck in Indy was huge! The guy wins those close ones 90% of time.

I agree Vernon hasnt posted many impact plays and Shelby and Jordan seem more productive. But I really dont care who starts. I am more interested in keeping a good rotation on the DLINE and keeping everyone fresh through 4 QTRs. Their ability to keep the DLINE fresh enables them to keep continuous pressure on the QB throughout the game.

Solai going down doesn't help. But a rotation of Odrick, Starks and Martin will prove solid at DT. I think we will see more Shelby and Jordan as they show they know the many different packages Coyle installs in a game plan.

This rotation is a major strength and I trust COYLE (these decisions are made by him not Philbin) to make the right personnel decisions to run it effectively.

Could it be that they drafted DJ because they knew Vernon would be a bust? I doubt it.

When it comes to Defense I care only about points allowed. It's what the Defense is there to do, stop the other team from scoring. Period....the end.

The Fin's' Defense have only allowed three touchdowns this season, just six points in the second halves and no fourth-quarter points. They're tied for third in points allowed per game at 15.0.

This is really excellent. If they can keep this up over the next few weeks, against Matty ICE, Breeze and Falco we will all know just how special this Defense is.

HERE IS SOMETHING TAPE AND PFF DON'T ACCOUNT FOR, WHO KNOWS THE PLAYBOOK THE BEST?

Vernon is probably starting because he knows the Playbook the best and is the most versatile out of the Bunch. Shelby might have more production. BUT can Shelby drop into coverage?

Now, don't get me wrong. I love Shelby, I love D.Jordan. BUT there is a reason Vernon is starting over them. And the coaches know what it is.

With that said, Mr. Salguero I have noticed that you are not a fan of The U. Or the players that come from that program.

IT IS ONLY GAME 2. Very difficult to make an Honest Assessment of how a person is playing with so few games played. Now if you want to make this Assessment after Week 8. Then go right ahead.

What if Vernon comes and gets 2 Sacks the next game? Then this whole post becomes Egregiously wrong.

We have bigger fish to fry. Or more like some crow we have to roast. Cause that is what the detractors are going to be eating this Sunday.

With that said, How many teams have 3 DEs in the Top 50?

And that is without D.Jordan playing to full capacity.

Dion Jordan

There wasn't a guy more critical of Dion Jordan before the draft then I was. I said how can you even consider this bean pole, 6'6 239 lbs at the time a 1st rounder let alone top pass rusher in the draft? He only had 5 sacks! I said he is going to be a bust for the Eagles or Raiders. Well what do you know, we trade up for him. I was so disappointed in the selection.

Fast forward to the preseason and I see him flash for a play or 2 a game in the 2 games he was healthy. I started paying more attention to the fact he was sort of a disruptive player by using his long frame in passing lanes and I started getting a little optimistic. Then he gets hurt and I thought maybe he will start on the PUP list but we still have Odrick, Vernon and Starks who all could add to what Cam Wake does.

Now it's the regular season. In very limited action the kid flashes. He had a great shake move on Joe Thomas who had no idea how to engage him on that sack (facemask) vs Browns. This past week he dropped a few times but when he came on that one he flashed his closing speed but pulled up because he thought Luck got rid of the ball.

Keep an eye on guys! He's a player! I'm confident of it. If he can stay healthy he will get more reps and make more and more plays.

Mando,

I believe this is where PPF statistics don't tell the whole story. I think they are using VO & Shelby according to game plan, if you noticed both VO & Wake seemed like they didn't do much. But look closely, Luck was contained and didn't have many opportunities to roll out or run. I think their game plan was to keep the edges binded up and keep him in the pocket, just contain him.

Last year Luck killed us with his running, specially during certains drives. Not this time and statistics are not going to show this fact. Also remember Wake has stated in the past that he was working with Vernon and stated the kid has unlocked potential (apparently so does Shelby!).

This week you"ll see a very different game plan, Matty Ice does not run like Luck. You may see more Shelby, the really great thing about all this...is that we are developing so many players that Coyle will have the opportunity to game plan against any team with so many crazy looks and all this speed.

As long as we manage injuries (they are going to happen, part of the game) well and keep developing-teaching good players, we will establish strong depth which is what long term championship organizations do. It's all about the game plan on how these players are used.

One more thing, you should write a piece on there being NO penalties what-so-ever during the Colts game in their house. Now that is a stat to talk about, maybe our O Line isn't so bad after all? Because when a line is bad and desperate, they get called for holding a lot. I know THill can't keep getting sacked so many times, but part of that is on him not throwing the ball away and taking the sack. He's got to stop taking the sack!

I just feel like Mando is trying too hard to use PFF data to create stories each week. I like the data, its interesting, but it doesn't need to be a story each week.

This week, there are a few 'issues' that will make or break the team's ability to beat the Falcons:

1) Can the DBacks hold up to Jones, Gonzalez and White? Clemmons is hurt. Wilson looks shaky. Patterson and the two rookies are apparently coming back from injuries. Carroll has played well to this point, will it continue. Grimes is playing his old team. This is material for a real story that impacts the Fins' ability to win.

2) Offense is giving up too many sacks. Clabo facing his old team has been shaky. RB's have not been good in pass protection, allowing two sacks last week. Martin the unproven LT who replaced Long. Jerry, out of shape but coming back, will he hold up. This has much more of an impact on the game this week than worries about Vernon.

3) TE is a thin position. Clay has really stepped up but will he continue to create plays. When is Simms goinng to be impactful in the red zone. Can we rely on Simms as a blocker. The TE position has been a huge impact position across the NFL....will our TE's step up.

Reggie is probably out this week already. And we all know how Reggie plays after he gets injured. He becomes a shell of himself.

Should we still have resigned Reggie?

Should we still have resigned Reggie?

Posted by: Dashi | September 18, 2013 at 08:39 AM

No doubt. We had plenty of cap room and he was the only playmaker on the entire team.

MADFIN,

Great post! I agree. I didn't have a problem with Wake not flashing in there. He had his chance and Luck is a strong kid and there's not much anyone could do about it.

You're dead on though with the game plan possibly to secure the edges and not let him scramble outside to make plays. You're right that just last year when he put up over 400 he made a living rolling out and on the edges. We held a great player in check as much as we could and got the W.

Good stuff!

I agree Vernon hasnt posted many impact plays and Shelby and Jordan seem more productive. But I really dont care who starts. I am more interested in keeping a good rotation on the DLINE and keeping everyone fresh through 4 QTRs. Their ability to keep the DLINE fresh enables them to keep continuous pressure on the QB throughout the game.

Solai going down doesn't help. But a rotation of Odrick, Starks and Martin will prove solid at DT. I think we will see more Shelby and Jordan as they show they know the many different packages Coyle installs in a game plan.

This rotation is a major strength and I trust COYLE (these decisions are made by him not Philbin) to make the right personnel decisions to run it effectively.

Posted by: jpao | September 18, 2013 at 07:58 AM

----------------------------------------
What jpao wrote is actually how I also see it, it's not about starting its about the rotation and development, case in point...

In Jordan's first game, he had a penalty for a face mask.
Second game, he fails to wrap up Luck for a loss.

Both are rookie mistakes, just shows more development needed. It may also be the same with Shelby, although he's not made mistakes or at least that I'm seeing. Both Jordan & Shelby are going to be fine additions to our D, it's not about starting its about reloading the D per situation during the game.

Brady should be worried, very worried. JT nightmares all over again!

Seriously!!

Do you just wait here all day in the Shadow waiting for Dashi to post.

I posted a Rhetorical question.

Yet, you want to answer with an Asinine post.

REGGIE ISN'T ON THE TEAM BECAUSE HE IS A PROGRESS STOPPER. REGGIE DEMANDED TO START. THAT WASN'T GOING TO HAPPEN THIS SEASON OR NEXT IN MIAMI.

REGGIE HAS ONE 1000 YD SEASON FOR HIS WHOLE CAREER. AFTER THIS SEASON L.MILLER AT 22 WILL BE TIED WITH REGGIE.

CAUSE WE ALL KNOW REGGIE WON'T GET 1000 YDS THIS SEASON.

Mundo,

You are the most inept reporter the Herald has had in years. Why you cover the Dolphins and not high school volleyball is beyond me. 99% of your post are negative. You are always trying to stir things up when there is in fact nothing there. I am sorry the Herald decided to buy you some PFF stats you can use to distort.

Shelby and Jordan have played good in late game and OBVIOUS passing downs. Note the emphasis on obvious. Their body of work is very limited and they are coming in fresh when they dont have to worry about the run. I am not taking anything away from those two, but to compare them to Vernon's plays is equal to comparing apples and oranges.

Wish Barry Jackson was the Dolphins' beat reporter, someone there should wake up!

Reggie gives you 1 good game all year. And he already wasted it on opening week. His season is all downhill from here.

Dashi,

I brought that point up earlier in the week. Where's all the 'should have re-signed Bush' clowns now? Seriously? Thy've all gone quiet all of a sudden. MIA....all of them. HILARIOUS!

Same bunch of 'Tanne-bust CLOWNS. Same bunch of 'Wallace was a waste of money' clowns. Same bunch of 'Jordan will be a bust' CLOWNS. hilarious people!

Craig,

It is funny how all the Clowns disappeared. Same goes for those who wanted Matt Moore to start. Or to Draft Matt Barkley.

I believe all those post disappeared with a certain castrating of someone. Even though the 1 person who magically appeared to defend Reggie sounds Familiar.

Not only was Reggie the only playmaker but he was also the face of the franchise. Unfortunately the Dolphins dont keep any player more than 4 years.

Dashi,

He's not even a 'Phins fan. The fraud has been revealed. Pathetic that a non-'Phins fan spends so much time in here wasting his days. Truly pathetic!

Agreed it is only game 2...there is such a thing as a game plan and coaches lay out snaps and plays way in advance...of course there are adjustments...but you need to stick to the plan for the most part...coaches will begin to incorporate and game plan for other players more if they continue to shine...one must also remember there are only so many plays to go around...

'Face of he francjise'........lol.

Well if he was the 'face of the franchise' for a team that consistently went 7-9' then we sure as Hell needed a facelift. Glad he's gone!

Glad he's gone!
Posted by: Craig M | September 18, 2013 at 09:18 AM
.eh?

eh?

So, Mando is saying we have a problem that our backup DE might be better than the starter. And the rookie as well. Please explain to me how that's a problem someone? Vernon's starting slow, AND? In ROTATION, the GROUP is doing a fabulous job. The GRAND VIEW is this is a problem teams would LOVE to have. We HAVE THE ANSWER on our team. Think the Pats have an answer to their WR problem on their team? Think again. Think the Jets have an answer to their QB problem on their team (Geno is the last rated QB in the AFC per stats)? Think again.

It's SUCH a problem, I checked the Power Rankings and lo and behold, Miami rounds off the list at #10. But of course that's nothing that would spark debate so why don't you pinprick at some minor detail and make a mountain out of a molehill Mando. Good work!

Vernon's chance is coming to a close if he doesn't produce soon. I think the end of game 4 he's wasted all the goodwill having the awesome offseason will afford him. Better produce soon Olivier.

2-0 w/ ov starting.
nuff said.

Mark, I agree Vernon might lose his starting gig, but here's how those PFF numbers are deceiving. When does Shelby come in? Usually 2nd half, later in games right (or am I wrong about that)? So OL's are tired, plus have seen (and game planned) the starters, whose thinking about Shelby?

Maybe he is a star, I don't know. But I think the numbers are suspect. Let's see him start and see how he fares. Again, great problem to have.

Ha! Daytona!!!!

phinz ^ 9 slots.
stop crying 'bout them not gettn' any cred.
lol

DC, very valid point about Shelby and Jordan going at tired OTs... very different being an every down starter and a super sub. Bottom line is the defense is getting the job done and keeping teams limited. The line has been super productive and having 3 ends in the top 20 is testament to that. However, we do need more production from that starting position. That's why I say don't pull him now but give him another two games. if he can't produce against the bush leaguers Indy, Atlanta, and NO throw out there at OT then we need to do something.

its true, vernon hasnt produced a thing since hes been here. play the better plAYERS

Unfortunately the Dolphins dont keep any player more than 4 years.

Posted by: AtlFin | September 18, 2013 at 09:04 AM

Cameron Wake, Brandon Fields, Denney, Brian Hartline. I think the Dolphins will keep productive players they think they can win with. 2 games and Reggie Bush is beat up. Is that really someone who's indispensable to the franchise?

2 watt, DC, yeah Ameria is waking up to the Dolphins. I think the ranking we have for now is finally fair. Now Chris Berman will have to shake his five chins as he talks about our team ... love it and I hate that man!!

Chud just named Hoyer the starter for Sunday's game. Weeden look like the bust from the first round QBs.

If its not broken, then dont fix it! As long as we are winning is all that should really matter. And I am pretty sure Shelby and Jordan are coming in only on a pass rush LB and not at the DE position.

WAIT A MINUTE AREN'T WE 2-0 WITH A GOOD DEFENSE? THEN WHY ARE WE WORRYING ABOUT APLAYER WHO DOES MORE FOR THE TEAM THAN JUST PASS RUSH? IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN COACH COYLE CLEARLY SAID HE WANTED TO GET MORE SNAPS FOR JORDAN AND SHELBY DOES AN OUTSTANDING JOB WITH HIS ROLE ON THE TEAM.THE PROBLEM IS NOT DEFENSIVE PRODUCTIONS BUT IT"S OFFENSIVE LINE PRODUCTION!! TOO MANY SACKS, NOT ENOUGH OF A RUNNING ATTACK SO FAR. FIX THOSE PROBLEMS AND THIS TEAM IF IT GETS BETTER AND STAYS HEALTHY WILL WIN AND MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. THIS WEEK THE EMPHASIS SHOULD BE ON STOPPING THE RUN AND SACKING RYAN BUT THIS GAME WOULD BE THE PERFECT TIME TO GET THE RUNNING GAME GOING AND WEAR THE FALCONS DOWN SO RYAN STAYS ON THE BENCH AND FINS COME AWAY WITH A IMPRESSIVE WIN.. I THINK THEY WILL 34-17 WITH MILLER RUSHING FOR OVER 100 YARDS, TANNEHILL WITH 3 TD PASSES(GIBSON,CLAY,WALLACE) THE DEFENSE SACKS RYAN 6 TIMES WITH 1 FF AND 2INTS(GRIMES,JONES) DOLPHINS GO TO 3-0 HEADING TO NEW ORLEANS (MNF).. THE MEDIA WILL HAVE TO GIVE RESPECT THEN AND IF WE WIN THAT GAME? OKAY I'M TO FAR AHEAD NOW.. GO FINS !!

..Why is it so important to some that the Phins get the attention of the National Media? Who cares? Seriously, why does it matter? Warren Sapp loves the Phins. Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasselbeck both schooled Colin Cowherd on his radio show Monday about Ryan Tannehill. Mike Florio mentioned the Phins on his show yesterday. What do you want? Should every talking head be picking, or talking Phins now? I would say keeping this a secret among the fans as long as we can is the right way to go. Enjoy the wins. Do you have to see it on the highlight reels to confirm what you saw for yourself?

I'm not saying this team is the 2010 team. I think are much better. But remember how it was the same story that year? People were ready to throw victory parades after the win in Minnesota. People were asking the same questions. Then what happened? So if media attention is what you need to validate what is happening here. I feel sorry for you. Enjoy being the underdog. It is much better then being the Dallas Cowboys, or the NY anything.

Darkoak, so much for Weeden's great preseason that should've left us quaking. And so much for Rod Childress' assessments. It was him that thought Weeden would be the better player than Tannehill ... oops

agree 100 percent darrly, its not college football. there is no such things as rankings. who gives 2 sharts what media says or doesnt say about us. just win baby

Im all Jack!ed up on Mountain Dew!!!

Armando,
I like your more balanced approach. I know some fans on the blog wont like the your focus on PFF and actual game tape, but I think thats exactly how players should be evaluated. Too many unfounded opinions have lead to some players becoming unecessary targets of criticism and some good players being overlooked. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

DD, personally I think it's nto so much a national media thing but a perceived lack of respect from ESPN in particular. They will go on swooning over Buffalo beating a crap Panthers team at home by a point and KC scoring 17 points at home against a crap Dallas defense at naseum but not even one word about the phins. personally I think it's disrespectful.

weeden is injured not benched

Shelby has been producing since the start of preseason and he continues to produce. Somehow the dolphins have got to figure out how to keep their best players on the field, regardless of draft status or contract size.

What happened to him Dusty?

mark who caressssssss

sacked 11 times in 2 games. thumb on throwing hand is sprained. might miss couple weeks

Just saw it was Weedens thumb. Still a bust in my mind lol.

Dusty, I care!!!

Darkoak, I think his arthritis is kicking in. These autumn days can wreak havoc on old bones.

Wasn't someone here saying we should've drafted Weeden also.

DC Great Point. OV and Wake soften Up the OT and Shelby and DJ come in and finish them off.

How hard is it for a OT when every down the guy across is going to bring it 110%. Then they switch him for another guy going Full Throttle.

When have the Dolphins ever had 4 Legit Pass Rushers. And that is without counting the DTs and LBs that can also rush.

If our secondary gets healthy and the rookies Develop. Watch out. This Defense can be real special.

I think he's starting to rest the other players, it's a fatigue/minutes of the opponent thing. That's why you have planned packages. Who's to say that if Jordan took all of those snaps that he'd be more productive? You have to think in terms of energy and insertion. This is nothing new, some d ends facilitate time pockets. I'm not defending him but he can be more productive with those amount of snaps I must agree. But may I opine that it is better to be circumspect, for instance, how many times has Vernon been sealed with a running back and tackle or guard for counter measure pass blocks that account for wake? That might sound asinine, but these things are accounted for pre snap to cover the void that wake creates when he's double teamed. How many times has someone rushed to his side? That amount of minutes contributes to his own fatigue, and there's nothing like a fresh set of legs coming in once every twenty downs in the likes of Jordan. Now I'm not defending him, but like you said, the coaches have tape and gameplans, it's easy for you to blast somebody and show his rank on some possibly pseudo stat check. I say pseudo because some players are asked to do a certain job and only the coach and other players know this and it's up to them to determine if they're doing it right. But yeah it'll be nice for him to get more tackles huh, without being circumspect. I know you can say that the numbers don't lie or whatever, but you can grow in football or any type of wisdom by asking yourself if these analyses are under clear perspective, and not your so called prism, prisms only invert the image.
And also, this doesn't have to be a planned time package for OV. Jordan's and Shelby's rank in that stat
could be a simple result of what those limited minutes/fresh legs allow them to do. I have more to say
about this, but I won't. Just imagine you being a coach
and not running through all possibly scenarios. That's
why you're a writer and not a coach. And if you (did) do run through all scenarios would you (have) still opine(ed) the way you opine(ed)? My name is Von j, and I approve this message.

"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy

Mark we take down Atlanta this week and the hype for the Monday night game will be huge especially if the Saints also stay undefeated until then.

mark if u care what media says or doesnt about us then u have bigger problems. cause none of that matters, this isnt garbage ncaa football its the nfl. i could careless if they mention us at all ever. i want to win on the field . nothing else matters one bit

Starks is amoung my favorite players on defense along with Wake and increasingly Brent Grimes. I really hope Jeff Ireland figures out a way to get Starks signed to a long term deal. This is not the time to take your foot of the pedal. We need to continue to add talent and keep the talent we have. Great teams figure these things out. They no how to keep their most talented players. I get the age thing but Starks is not showing any signs of slowing down and he is our best all around interior lineman.

Good post by MADFIN @ 8:35.

I am not concerned with the absense of Solia...I am quite curious to see how Odrick and Starks perform together on the inside from starters roles...I tihnk it can be real nice...maybe even making the resigning of Solia...not such a priority...even though I do love big Paul...

How was R.Bush the face of the franchise when you have Turnover Moore win the Team MVP.

R.Bush is a Total Diva. And I wouldn't even say that. Cause those wrestling chicks are tougher than Reggie.

..Mark.. I disagree. What EJ Manuel did had only been done once or twice before.(80 plus yard drive in under 1:30 by a rookie to win) Anytime you beat Dallas it is going to be national news.

I would say that if you listen to ESPN...(It is on all day in my office) The "Experts" all love Miami. the hosts of the shows..They have questions. But all the football guys love what is happening here. Plenty of respect..My opinion is that media respect is over-rated..winning isn't. I would rather we keep winning, and the talking heads keep talking Buffalo, and Dallas.

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