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Philbin endorses OL coach Jim Turner

Amid the ups and downs of this season and the drama and controversy of the past three weeks, one constant that has remained (unfortunately for the Dolphins) has been that the offensive line has always been at the core of the issues.

You know the facts: Forty-one sacks allowed to lead the NFL. Two starting linemen gone from the team because they were frenemies or something, guys benched, etc ...

And to me, that begs the question what responsibility does offensive line coach Jim Turner have in all this.

Well, let's get to the news. Whatever part Turner has played in any or all of Miami's offensive line problems and drama, he apparently has the blessing of his boss. That's because on Tuesday, Dolphins coach Joe Philbin gave Turner a pretty solid endorsement when I asked what kind of job the assistant has done so far this season.

"I thought he did a great job," Philbin began. "It’s evidence in the play of our guys the other day.  We had a lot of  moving parts and we’ve had some moving parts throughout the course of the season.  I think his players believe in him. I think he works hard every single day and he’s done a good job."

Now, I understand Philbin isn't going to throw Turner under the bus if he believes the assistant has stunk. That's simply not done. But there are ways to finesse this if the head coach wants to without losing credibility.

You'll recall Tony Sparano was asked in 2008 what kind of job then offensive line coach Mike Maser was doing. I recall because I asked the question. And Sparano said something akin to "he's busy doing his job and he'll be evaluated at the end of the season just like we'll all be evaluated at the end of the season."

That was no an endorsement, particually in light of the fact he was being effusive about other assistants when asked. And apparently Sparano took that tact for good reason because after a season in which Dolphins quarterbacks were sacked 26 times, Maser was fired. Seems Maser rubbed some players the wrong way and actually, get this, was a bit of a bully at times, according to club sources who spoke to me at the time.

The irony.

Anyway, that's not the approach Philbin took on Tuesday. His was a full-blown attaboy for Turner. And that is fine if that's how Philbin feels.

But I'm not so sure the facts jibe with the kudos. The Dolphins have given up 78 sacks in the two years Turner's been the offensive line coach -- and there are still six games to play this season.

Now, sacks are not the full measure of an offensive line coach. After all, quarterback awareness in the pocket affects that number as does inexperienced or poor pass protection from backs. But then there's this:

One player was very good before Turner arrived and has been very good after leaving didn't play nearly as well under Turner. Jake Long was ProFootballFocus's No. 21-rated tackled in 2011 before Turner joined the Dolphins. Last year under Turner, Long dropped to the No. 46-rated tackle in the NFL, according to PFF. This year with the St. Louis Rams, he is the No. 7 rated offensive tackle.

And it is not just Long.

Last year with Atlanta, right tackle Tyson Clabo was the No. 14-rated offensive tackle in the NFL, according to PFF. He allowed only five sacks, including none in the final 14 games he played including the playoffs.

This year with the Dolphins?

Clabo has allowed 10 sacks, has not been able to string together even two games without allowing a sack and is the No. 66-rated tackle in the NFL, per PFF. Did he suddenly forget how to play the game? Did he suddenly lose not one, but several steps at age 32?

Center Mike Pouncey is pass blocking much better now under Turner than he did as a rookie in 2011 before Turner. But how much of that is the fact Pouncey's simply more experienced? And his run blocking in 2013 actually is not as good as it was in 2011.

Now, I'm not saying everyone takes a step back under Turner. Richie Incognito's work got much better under Turner. And John Jerry became a full-time starter under Turner.

But Jerry has already given up twice as many sacks this year (4) as he did last year (2) and there are still six more games to play. And Incognito ... well, let's not go there.

 

 

Comments

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Mark agreed one more year for T-hill but i would look to 3 rd or 4 th round for someone to challenge. Deep QB draft. Dont see a free agent QB out there that is better.

Take T-hill over bottom 15 QB's right now including Cutler.

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lol

Dashi,

Ball Carriage
Shoulder dropback
Shoulder Forward
Target Step
Throwing Elbow
Trail Foot
Vertical Head
Throwing Hand

All of these Thill is nowhere near the level Marino was at you Dolt. Which one of these would you like me to open up on you on first?

I ain't got the energy or time to banter with you for a long time tonight, so pick a winner Dolt.

What like most about this version of Newton is this....

While I was in MO a dew weeks back...I caught a Newton sound bite....after a BIG win....maybe the 3rd in a row or something...Newton was deflecting ALL praise from himself...and heaping it upon the TEAM....Newton was maturing right before our eyes...Newton learned a lesson in humility and Leadership....

A lesson he would do well in speading to RG3...who even today was acussed of blaming LOSSES on the team...while @ the same time taking CREDIT for WINS....

and Tanne could use some of that LEADERSHIP training....

Instead of SIDING with 90% of the Locker room during The Martin/Cogs scandal....

he should have used it as an oppertunity to take control of a lockerroom that is sorely lacking in character..and exert some of his will and leadership upon it...

Tanne should have taken a more nuetral stance...talked about how he this is something everybody can learn from...and how he the FINS are a family that wants Martin back (true or untrue)....

Instead...Tanne takes the COMPANY line...and falls right in line with the OL that is on to give up an NFL record in sacks...

I want my QB to be a leder...and Tanne continues to show himself to be a follower...and that bothers me a bit...

Mark T,

Let's talk after the Panthers game then. I pray you are right, I'd be delighted as much as you or even more so as a long time fan of the Dolphins.

People stuck with Beck, Henne, Pat White and so on. I debated with them as Im doing with you too. They never gave up on their arguement though, but I guess I have to respect your decision and move on to another topic.

Dashi, where are you ???

Kris,

Great point. Thill is always taking the company BS line. I get tired off him telling me he is 'excited'.

Look for how many times he states this, it makes him sound like a little kid.

When Pouncey kicked off in the Tampa game, Thill just watched his center in that fight and made zero attempt to break it up, pathetic.

During Bullygate, he should have stayed out of taking sides and been above it all. You make a good point about leadership though he hasn't been able to command the huddle or locker room like a leader should.

Incognito was a Pro Bowl tackle last year, even as an alternate. There is no reason to have him suspended. Everyone in the Locker room wants him back and , after all if anybody knows what transpired between Incognito and Martin in the locker room the Team would be aware.
Incognito is getting screwed.

BRING BACK INCOGNITO

Dashi...

Marco has jut shown up in the past few days...and I am sure he is a "regular" poster on here using a different name...but I don't think he fits in the category of a troll....

He has a differing point of view from that of Mark...and you...and probaly 80% of those who believe Tanne is the future....

Some things Marco is posting are a bit absurd...some I think are on target...but one thing I haven't seem him be disrespectful...altho poiniant @ times....

There is room on here for differing opinions....

Dolphins D seems to have a very tough time against qb's who tuck the ball and run.

Kaep, Locker, and Luck last season. I think Luck had one against them this season. I don't Coyle assigns a spy against these sort of qb's in case they break the pass rush contain.

So, I expect Cam Newton to gash us up a bit breaking contain or on designed runs.

Dashi,

Look at Thill throws again mate and then Marino's.

Check out the release on both yeah. Yeah see how Dan's is like a laser, quick, accurate and on time with ZING ???
Look at Thill's, slow, weaker and arched.

Kris,

Dashi respectful mate ??? Read his posts. Thats ok I can take it all as fun. Thanks for the critique dude, even though its in very small compass.

I'm waiting on him to explain. He posted a list he got from a website that explains what are the different parts of throwing mechanics. I want him to EXPLAIN the difference.

Half of those things he mentioned make up the throwing motion. And Marino and T-Hill have the same throwing motion.

Kris, don't fall for that trick buddy.

You and I both know Armando doesn't get any new bloggers. They just get new names.

Marco, Marino is also one of the most accurate DEEP BALL passers to ever live. I would never in sober conscience compare Tannehill to Marino.

OMG, in Marino's 2nd yr he was setting a new single season passing yardage(5,000) and td(48) record. It's blasphemy to even dream of comparing the two in anything right now.

Marco...

I didn't mean to critique you...

and I was saying that your post have been respectful...but they are also to the point...and sometimes...that is not recieved well...

I have a lot of typos in my post (normally)...so perhaps it didn't read right...

Plus, if Marino and Tannehill have the exact same mechanics and throwing motion, why are the results so WIDELY different?

That's the problem I have with that statement and I'm far from qb guru.

People stuck with Beck, Henne, Pat White and so on. I debated with them as Im doing with you too. They never gave up on their arguement though, but I guess I have to respect your decision and move on to another topic.

Dashi, where are you ???

Posted by: Marco | November 20, 2013 at 12:54 PM

__________________________________________________________

Does this sound like someone who is new here?

I don't are if it's a comparison of their releases, their wives, mistresses whatever.

Comparing Marino to Tannehill is an insult to intelligent people every where.

We do know that Dashi...

I guess what I m sayig is that Marco does bring some beef with his post...and he doesn't attack the person....he attacks the post....which isn't a bad thing..imo...

Throwing Motion and Football IQ are 2 Different things.

Kris, Newton from his days at Auburn took on Warren Moon as a personal advisor. Warren is a man I still see around town every now and then as he does work for the CFL. he's still cherished up here and people get really excited when he pops up. A true trailblazer and leader. Sounds like Cam is listening.

Moon was a man who instead of going to another position as a lot of the good old boys in the NFL wanted him to do for bigotted reasons, went to Edmonton in the CFL and re-wrote record books up here and frankly wasted five years here instead of being a top NFL qb for that time. But we were glad to have him. Your loss as they say. The price he paid laid inroads for a lot of the young guys today. Not only the black qbs but I'm not sure Tony Romo would've been given a shot either or Mark Sanchez.

Still the all time leader in total yards in professional football.

In Marino's 2nd yr, it took maybe 3 and half games to have 14 passing tds. Tannehill has 14 passing tds after 10 games.

Lets not get to far ahead of ourselves suggesting Tannehill does anything like Marino just yet. The results will speak for themselves.

Right now the results speak as quietly as church mice pissing on cotton.

All of these Thill is nowhere near the level Marino was at you Dolt. Which one of these would you like me to open up on you on first?

I ain't got the energy or time to banter with you for a long time tonight, so pick a winner Dolt.

Posted by: Marco | November 20, 2013 at 12:49 PM

___________________________________________________

Explain how this is not offensive?

I could care less about insults. And offensive language. I can more than handle myself.

But notice that last line. Marco doesn't want to talk for a long time tonight. Meaning he spends long time talking here on other nights.

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA... now you have a good argument when you compare top NFL qbs today to Tannehill and say he has a far way to go but to put him in the same company as Beck, Henne, and White is not fair either. Those guys just couldn't play. Tannehill can play but is just too mistake prone right now to be a top NFL qb. Comparing those three jabronies to Tannehill is as legit as comparing Tannehill to Brees or Peyton.

Again, As Marino's biggest fan. I am not comparing T-Hill to the Most Prolific Passer in History. I am just saying they have similar mechanics when throwing the football.

Throwing Mechanics and playing QB are 2 Different things.

You can throw a pretty ball and suck as a qb because your instincts suck or you don't understand the game as well as others.

But again, since you brought up what makes up Throwing Mechanics. I would love an explanation on how T-Hills mechanics are way different than Marino's.

MIT anyone comparing Tannehill to Beck or Henne are only doing it to get a rise from other posters. I wouldn't respond to those posts. Those posters themselves already know better.

Take T-hill over ponder, Weeden, kapem and even RG 3 right now.

Also wonder how he would fare in Seattle offense.

Agreed on his leadership qualities. Although hard to know exaclty what goes on in the locker room it does not appear that he has made this his team. Take them to the playoffs with a few big wins.....and then we have something.

I mean this year one Qb who is having a very similar season to Tannehill is Tom brady. I don't think we could ever write that sentence with Henne, Beck, or White ...

But the overall stats and the Qb is having the most similar season to Tannehill is Brady at this point. Carson Palmer too... All are middle of the road qbs this year.

Dashi if the throwing mechanics are the same, then how do we explain Marino as one of the most accurate deep passers ever and Tannehill struggles in the same department?

Does not throwing mechanics equate into the deep ball also?

Throwing Mechanics don't equal Pocket Presence.

Marino was the fastest and most agile QB in the Pocket in history.

Pump faking isn't throwing mechanics.

Throwing mechanics are throwing mechanics.

It is like saying someone has the same shooting stroke as MJ. Doesn't mean that they will be as great as MJ. Just that they shoot the same.

Mark...

I liked watching Warren Moon throw the football...a true thing of beauty....I am by no means an expert in footwork...or all the other mechanics that it takes to get the ball down feild...but Warren Moon had the prettiest spiral I have ever seen....and the Run and Shoot was among the first prolific offenses that we saw as kids...

Having said all of that...

I can never forgive Warren Moon and the Houston Oilers for letting Buffalo come back to win that Playoff game after being up 30-3...or whatever it was @ the half...

they cost Marino a Ring....

Sam,

Throwing mechanics doesn't equate accuracy. You know how many great qbs had horrible mechanics. A Bunch.

Just like you have guys that have great mechanics and can't hit the ocean with a BB.

K.Boller, Great Mechanics but horrible Accuracy.

And Marino was the most accurate deep ball passer ever. Not one of the most.

Should've watched Marino on the Madden Challenge yesterday. The Man still has it. Only Qb Dropping it in the basket from 40 yds out yesterday. Moon, Aikman, and McNabb couldn't even hit the Basket. Marino hit the basket once and put it in the basket the other time. Even his third throw was almost in the basket.

Again, I'm Not comparing anyone against Marino. Never will. Marino is the greatest Qb Ever in my book. Nobody is even close.

Just stating the truth, Marino and T-Hill have similar Mechanics. So does P.Rivers.

I think he's doing the best he can with what little he's had to work with, but if anybody should have noticed the supposed (and I say supposed b/c I think Martin may be solely responsible and looking for a big lawsuit payday) personal rift between Incognito and Martin, it should have been the OL coach, no?
Then again, when Sam Brenner, an undrafted FA comes up off of the practice squad over Dallas Thomas--who was inactive all year until the other day--that has to do with drafting mistakes, or rather, the front office not evaluating talent well....as in Ireland.

Kris, there are a few days in life I will never forget as I associate them strictly with a sporting event. I remember everything I did that day Frank Reich and the Bills came back on the Oilers. I remember going to the gym, I remember driving around, everything. I was so giddy when the Oilers were up. And was shell shocked when they lost.

By the way, Don Beebe went out of bounds on that long td then touched the ball illegally.

Anyway, yeah, Heywood Jeffries, Chris Givens,very exciting. And that def front 7 was something fierce too. William Fuller, Sean jones were quite the bookends and of course Chris Dishman who was quite the controversial figure playing CB.

A couple of noteables on that team. Future Dolphin Kevin Donnalley who was one of the best Dolphins guards I saw play was a member of that Oiler team as was current Titan head coach Mike Munchak. Munchak, Donnalley, Bruce Matthews ... nice line.

Giddy...

Mark...

I went outside to have a snowball fight with my brother (the Giants fan)...I even stuck around after halftime to see how the first few series went...when the Oilers returned that INT for 6....I knew the game was over........I just knew we were on our way to the first SB win of my lifetime...No Bills to go thru....

My jaw dropped when I came back inside just in time to see them muff the FG attempt...

and you know the rest after that...Crappy memories...

Turner will be credited with the disaster and shown the door at Seasons end but he had the wrong group altogether to run the Zone scheme effectively. I won't give him or any Coach on this team a pass but feel he got the worst of it among the Assistants on this team. I remember when the zone OL scheme took off with the Broncos anchored by LT Tony Jones, LG Schlereth and C T.Nalen. Those guys weren't the biggest but they were quick and worked together well pulling in one direction opening up the cut back for one-cut runner T.Davis.

Outside of Pouncey we don't have that and after a string of 09 injuries when Sparano ran Long into the ground starting with a meaningless Pre-Season game in Dallas we didn't have the LT for it anymore either. That became evident last Yr. when a more motivated Pouncey was actually pulling around LT lead blocking downfield. You even look at last Yrs. Falcons mentioned here and they had the athletic Sam Baker and Blaylock anchoring their leftside!

I look at our hog OL and feel were better suited for the POWER scheme (which we've used more effectively this Yr.) and when getting cute go with the Skins Old School counter trey because it's what your bigger less athletic OL is suited for. We drafted Dallas Thomas to be a Tackle in the scheme and if you look at Thomas you'll see the difference between what he is and what we have and by the way it looks like Ireland now searching for that type of player for the scheme is simply trying to fit athlete's into a scenario were they may not fit if were to take the progress of D.Thomas as an indication. Not giving Turner a pass but he was saddled with the wrong group at least he isn't former DB Coach Coyle who can't get Taylor or Davis on the field!!

So, no Patterson, no Pouncey, do we become 6-7 point underdogs? Pouncey should just get the surgery and go on IR.

f4l, you may have a point but since this staff has come in, they've acquired three linemen with reasonably signifigant resources in Clabo, Martin, and Dallas Thomas and none of them are useful.

This is not even including moderate moves like rolling the dice on Lance Louis.

Shows me something that the linemen we had from the old regime still get the nod over guys the new regime picked ....

No Patterson again? Man, this guy is useless....

How many ofthese Mar-- are here? Mark, Marc, Marco now, hopefully no Mar-con,

Luckily they won't need him this week. If Carroll can't do a job against Brandon Lafell with scattershot Newton in the pocket then he needs to find a new vocation.

I think Dallas Thomas played more G at Tennessee than anything else. That they want to make a T out of him now, To My Eyes he looks more like a G.

Mark, they say he's questionable, but listening to him, sounds like he won't start and will play sparingly. He says doctors say he needs rest, but he sounds like he knows his injury history is getting into Channing Crowder status and he's playing for a job next year (so he doesn't want to sit out).

What's crazy is I'm less concerned with Pouncey being out. That's how bad Carroll is, I trust a guy we just signed last week over him (Brenner). I see Carroll getting abused by no less than one Ted Ginn, Jr. (the original Edward Scissorhands).

Does anyone else find it strange you can find out about Pouncey's status (at least limited info) on espn, the sun-sentinel, the palm beach post. But not even a whisper from Armando? What gives? Is he respecting Philbin's desire to keep injuries in-house? Why if no other reporter is? OR, is he too pre-occupied with Ted Wells and the investigation? That would be my gut feeling.

DC, I hear what you're saying but the Carolina front four will do a better job than the Chargers front 7 of exposing not Brenner's , but Garner's limitations. Brenner is a beast and a good athlete. he may get outschemed or confised but he won't lose man up battles. Garner will.

I think it is all George Bush's fault. Think about it, why not? I like it!

Anybody knows who Gardner's backup at C is?

John Denney???

Haha, nobody ... no shotgun snaps if Garner goes down.

Guys,

Talking memories you don't forget I was in the OB in the Div. RD Playoff game Vs. the Chargers after the 81 Season. We were Season ticket holders and in our seats located at the 20 Yd. line open end on the Dolphins side of the field. The score hit 24-0 early and my Dad said lets go! My Mom (interestingly) said give it a few minutes it's the 1st Qrt. and we sat and watched the comeback!

The Old man still said we were going at halftime because while the Fins scored 10 (he was B I T C H I N G) that Fouts would drop another 24 in the 2nd half. Then the play that changed it all! Strock hits Duriel Harris at about the 25 when he laterals to Nathan catching the Chargers DB's converging on Harris. Mind you there were seconds left in the half so the Old Man was already standing and the play was on our side of the field (right in front of me I was only 10 and remember like it was yesterday!) He had a full Beer in hand and threw it on me and the people in the section, everybody wentr nuts and we went to the half 24-17.

Needless to say we stayed and if not for 2 Uwe Von Shomann missed F.G.'s of 40 and one of less blocked by Winslow we win before their Kicker with the strangs name Rolf Binierchke won it. I was disappointed but remember leaving thinking I had just seen something real special although the Stadium would have lynched Von Shomann afterwards.

U N B E L I E V A B L E M E M O R I E S !!!!

Hi Oscar ;-)

Gardner and Brenner did a creditable job vs the Chargers even if each of them gave up a sack. But it is highly unrealistic to think that this make-shift Oline of ours can maintain the momentum vs the Carolina front 7. Truly.

Shows me something that the linemen we had from the old regime still get the nod over guys the new regime picked ....

Posted by: Mark in Toronto | November 20, 2013 at 02:14 PM

No disputing you here but whose really responsible for the players brought in?? The Coaches want a certain scheme so the G.M. finds them the players that the scouts bring him tape on. If the scouts felt Dallas Thomas a player and brought him to Ireland's attention then he brought him to the Coaches attention who are figuring out what to do with the guys on the roster not the ones coming then I ask again whose to blame when we can't get a significant contribution out of the entire draft in

Yr. 2!

I was ending with this!

Bottom line is production on the field. Jim Turner is in charge of getting the oline to preform and that performance, even before the Martin/Incognito mess, was giving up sacks at a record pace. Im not placing every sack on just the oline but the point was made that Clabo last year was 14th rated tackle and didnt give up a sack in his last 11 games last year including playoffs. This year hes rated like 66. Players dont fall apart that fast unless it comes down to the scheme or system they are placed in. Also look at Jake Long with and without Turner. The oline coach has to go and for Philbin to say hes done a great job is ludicious. I get he cant throw him under the bus, but just say nothing and dont treat us fans like we've never attended an NFL game before and know the difference between a solid offensive line and the stink of our oline this year

I think Dallas Thomas played more G at Tennessee than anything else. That they want to make a T out of him now, To My Eyes he looks more like a G.

Posted by: oscar canosa | November 20, 2013 at 02:21 PM

I looked it up almost even here but I agree with you he looked like a Guard to me when used in the Pre-Season. He played terrible in HOF game but later at RT looked better however when used at RG he seemed at his best.

I think Dallas Thomas played more G at Tennessee than anything else. That they want to make a T out of him now, To My Eyes he looks more like a G.
Posted by: oscar canosa | November 20, 2013 at 02:21 PM
oscar,2 my eyes he suxx
.
lol

f4l, I find it hard to believe Ireland makes these conclusions in a vacuum. he took Sparano's word on players he wanted (Jerry, Odrick) and consulted Philbin when discussing Gates and Vontae on hard Knocks. I would ahve to think the coaching staff is included in the evaluation process.

But Brenner was a shrewd pickup. his measureables are pretty good. Better than some of the rookie guards starting - Hugh Thornton, brian Winters, Justin Pugh especially. May be a worthwhile gamble that pays off. They must've liked the tape they saw on Thomas becuase I could find nothing out there on his workout results ....

If Shula ever had something was always great Qbs and Great Olines. Makes sense.

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