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From Beinfest to Guillen, uncertainty at the top

     NEW YORK -- Ozzie Guillen says he's bounding off to Spain for a couple of weeks of bullfighting the moment the season ends. After that, Guillen said he intends to spend the winter warming by the fireplace at his home in Chicago. Whether he returns to South Florida as manager of the Marlins remains to be seen.

     Guillen could get the heave-ho, along with president of baseball operations Larry Beinfest and other members of the front office and coaching staff. Only owner Jeffrey Loria knows for certain how large the wrecking ball will be, and he's not saying at the moment.

     Most people I talk to find it stunning that, even with the Castro flap and spectcularly bad season, anyone would even contemplate axing Guillen just one year into a four-year deal, no matter how poor his or the team's performance. After all, Guillen was Loria's top target (after Bobby Valentine), his personal choice to whip the lads into shape and steer the team to its first postseason berth since 2003. Loria was so high on Guillen that he didn't just give him the longest and largest ($10 million) contract of any Marlins manager, he traded two players to the White Sox to pry him him out of Chicago.

     Now, after just six months of a baseball season, multiple sources say Loria is experiencing buyer's remorse.

     It's not the first time. Counting his time in Montreal, Loria has hired and spit out managers like sunflower seeds. Felipe Alou. Fired. Jeff Torborg. Fired. Joe Girardi. Fired. Fredi Gonzalez. Fired. In 13 seasons as a major league owner, Loria has had seven managers -- eight if one counts the two separate stints served by Jack McKeon. Dumping Guillen and hiring a replacement would bring the total to eight different managers in 14 years.

     Getting rid of Guillen so quickly wouldn't be unprecedented. Girardi, who was given a 3-year deal and was Loria's choice over other candidates favored by the front office, lasted all of one season before the axe fell. And that overachieving 2006 team earned Girardi the NL Manager of the Year title. Managing the Marlins is not a stable occupation.

     But being in charge of baseball operations has always been. The Marlins have had only two such head architects in their 20 years: Beinfest and Dave Dombrowski. Beinfest's days now appear to be numbered, at least in his present capacity. With three years remaining on his contract, Loria could decide to reassign him rather than out-and-out fire him, but with the understanding Beinfest is free to look for new employment.

     Soon, we'll know all the answers.

Comments

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richiej

Fired managers, all were pretty good ones. Probably not willing to tolerate crap from Loria and Tinkerbelle. Ozzie on the other hand has made some pretty questionable moves. Most recently was bringing in Cisheck to face the heart of Atlantas' lineup, all lefthanded except Chipper (switch hitter). He had Dunn ready in the bullpen.

The farm system quickly became depleted after Dombrowski left.

Best solution is sell the team. New Owner, new front office, new coaches. Eduardo and StClaire haven't helped anybody improve. The scouting, drafts, trades, free agent signings, etc have all been misguided.

Oh, but the fresh Sushi, Amusement Device, and Skyline are terrific. Neither have anything to do with baseball, but that is the point. Loria and company are not baseball people.

flagstafffishfan

This should be interesting. I just look at what Robin Ventura is doing and it amazes me that owners still go after guys like Ozzie when there are better options out there for cheaper too. Ozzie does look out of his element at times in the NL. He doesn't manage the bullpen very well but I still think that players have to perform when given an opportunity and we all know that there were players that simply didn't perform at all for this group. Larry Beinfest on the other hand has made some horrible moves over the past several years and I do feel that he needs to go. I cry watching Miguel Cabrera thinking what could have been with he and Giancarlo on the same team.

Flav C.

I agree on several points with richie.

My biggest grudge against Beinfest and the guys working for him is not so much the fact that the #1 draft picks from 2002-2009 were complete busts (I'm using this time frame because most draftees from this time frame should be having good playing time by now).
#1 draft picks can be hits and misses. If we look at our competition, since 2002 the only team that actually did really good with their #1 picks, was the Nats. Kudos to them, but also they had the benefit of being last in the MLB for several seasons, therefore having the opportunity of picking the cream-of-the-crop. Since then they picked both Zimmermans (Ryan and Jordan), Detwiller, Strasburg, Harper, Marrero, and Drew Storen. These players either are part of the regular lineup or having good playing time.
The Braves would come in second, with the picks of Heyward, and Minors. The Phillies have Cole Hamels as the only #1 draft pick since 2002 who lived up to the expectations. The Mets sent some of their #1 picks to other teams (Humber, Kazmir, Miledge), and others were busts.

As I was saying, my biggest grudge is not the #1 picks, but the development of other drafted players who came later in the draft rounds. After all these years, from 2002 thru 2009 all the Marlins have to show off is Stanton, Cishek, and JJ. That's it. Most of our NL East competitors maybe didnt have good #1 draft picks, but they've developed other draftees who know are doing really well in the regular lineup. The Braves developed McCann, Hanson, Kimbrel, Medlen, Freeman. The Phillies have Domonic Brown, Vance Worley, Stutes, DeFratus, Kendrick. Mets have been developing Daniel Murphy, Dillon Gee, Lucas Duda, Nieuwenhuis. And the Nats not only got the best #1 picks, but also developed other picks, like Desmond, Lannan, Stammen, Espinosa, Kimball, as well as used high round draft picks on good trades (i.e. Peacock, Norris, and Milone for Gio Gonzalez).

Changing Beinfest for Jennings will not change anything. They need to change all these guys who are responsible for drafting and developing the players.



bob

It's been said that Loria is the reason the Marlins dumped money on Heath Bell. Well, you just need to look at his managerial short list to know that Loria is horrible at picking people. Bobby Valentine? The man is being run out of Boston and he was Loria's guy after Ozzie? Imagine how much worse this season would be if Valentine was manager.

Eddie S

The problem with the Marlins started at the beginning when they left Solano in spring training batted 412 and Donnie Murphy 210 ( Beinfest's Fault) When Heath BELL blew so many saves, he should immediately put in the 7th or 8th inning spot( Ozzie's Fault). Too many batters hit below 200 and kept them Cousins, and Murphy, Morrison should not have played 1 game because his injury wasn't healed Managements Fault.

Rooting for Ruggiano to start in left , Solano at 2nd base Brantly the main catcher, Evaldi and Turner in the Rotation ALL SHOULD BE TOLD NOW IF THEY CONTINUE TO PLAY AT SUCH A FANTASTIC PACE THEY SHOULD ALL START IN 2013 .

Stan M

I put the following on the last blog after everyone ad switched to here. Here it is because I think it's relevent

Are the Marlins tying Beinfest to the martyr's stake to burn him for Loria's heresy's? Here is an excellent article by David Hyde that indicated that Loria interferred in baseball decisions far more than many of us might have realized. To Beinfest's credit. he kept this team mildly competitive while the salary was miniscule by major league standards. His recent trades are looking better by the day.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-marlins/fl-hyde-miami-marlins-beinfest-0921-20120920,0,5990971.column

Regarding the Carbera trade we must think back to the following.
*He was considerably overweight.
*He was a very poor defensive player
*His attitude was hurting other players
*He was an alcholic
*He was soon to be too expensive for Loria
*The players we received for him were pearls within the Detroit organization
*The players received didn't work out for the Marlins but have since shown major development with their new teams. The players might have to be reevaluated in a few years much to the Marlin's unhappiness.

Now here's the kicker. I have read, and so may many of you, that Beinfest had a different deal finalized with the Angels that Loria voted down. As I remember, the players we would have received are now major stars. If this is true, than blame toward Beinfest is seriously misplaced.

CLARK
As you are our only inside source, is it possible to see if this first possible trade is indeed authentic? I realize that you would have to tread softly, but such information is really critical to any evaluation of Beinfest.

I still feel that had Loria not fired Gerardi and he were still our manager, this whole scenerio would be very ddifferent. Just as one for instance, can you imagine how Gerardi would have handled the whole LoMo fiasco? Ditto for Coghlan. If you folks think me wrong, please tell me so.

Marlin Fan

Agreed Stan . Good post Flav C , and Eddie S. Unfortunately next year we will have the same owner and manager so don't expect drastic improvement . I would be overjoyed with 81 wins .

Marlin Fan

Lets say Beinfast and Ozzie get the axe( can we be that lucky) , who would everyone want to see in their place ?

laurelbowie

Stan M,
As I recall, the Angels had been pursuing Cabrera for weeks, but I don't know that they had that much to offer. The names I've heard are Howie Kendrick, Brandon Wood, Nick Adenhart and maybe Joe Saunders. The sad thing is, if the deal had gone through, it probably would have saved Adenhart's life because he wouldn't have been at that intersection at the fateful moment.
Of course, then the Fish called Detroit with a proposal, the Tigers called back two hours later and the Marlins' fate was sealed.
I agree with everybody who's said that replacing Beinfest with Jennings is just changing the seating chart on the Challenger. As long as you've got the tightwad titan calling the shots, one yes-man is as good as the next yes-man. And the reason the Marlins' draft record has been so crappy over the past decade is not that Beinfest was a lousy judge of talent — it's just that if the Fish had drafted anybody worth a sh*t, they'd have had to pay them or suffer major embarrassment, and paying them wasn't an option.

laurelbowie

Marlin Fan,
Mike Lowell is one of my favorite Marlins (not Martians) of all time, and he might make a hell of a manager. But I don't know that it would work dropping a guy with no managerial and no coaching experience into the middle of this nonsense.
How about Terry Francona for manager? And Joe Torre to replace Beinfest? Just a thought.

Flav C.

LB,
After suffering for years with Steinbrenner interfering on baseball decisions on a regular basis, I doubt Torre would come to the Marlins and deal with a "Steinbrenner-wannabe".

laurelbowie

Flav C,
I'm sure you're right.
The girls call it window shopping. I call it checking out the showroom floor. Either way, no money is changing hands.

juanv

sorry for not posting in a while but this front office shake up is a joke. the Jamestown Jammers became a pittsburgh afiliate and the marlins haven't signed any short season team yet. Hopefully batavia. but the main problem I am seeing is a sad state on the future. You fire ozzie hire lowell,next year fire lowell bring francona fire francona the manager is not at fault here he gets what he has to work with I am not making excuses for guillen he has pulled pitchers for no good reason or left them to long but you saw during the franchise some of those calls in bringing up or switching players to triple were from the front office them selves you have a first baseman in the outfield that can 't run or track a ball like he tracks his tweets. You have stanton no protection behind him,no bats on the bench besides dobbs. and when they do make any trades are all financial dumps hanley and cash would have brought back somthing better tha eavoldi.maybe a cf that can bat.chaote alone could of brought back a better player than eovaldi. infante by himself could of brought brantley and flynn sanchez by himself could of brought back something else they just cheapened the rotation for next year. and have not improved theteam at all you brought in ruggiano and lee yes but we had ruugiano and lost a pretty good catcher in morales. lee we gave up on dominguez basicly a wash but to use a top chip prospect and not get a long term player in return no sense at all the front office has to go bring in minaya atleast he signed some good international freew agents in the mets farm system

juanv

lowell is a great guy but start him in the minors develop some guys bring some motivation to some of the minor leaguers. start building a team from single a all the way to triple a they had no chance to bring up anybody that could of ignited the team this year at all. The farm is the only way to win 27 million dollars for bell could of gone into their farm and would of been money well spent.

Flav C.

Stanton, who on Monday was reported that was going to miss only one game, is now out until Sunday. Maybe more.
Ruggiano got hurt tonight on a bad defensive play.

Hey, since we already have Gil Velazquez playing, let's bring Cervenak and Aguila to replace the injured folks! A 36 years old and another 33 years old (like Gil) Triple A veterans that have a lot to contribute to this organization next season.
Nevermind we have a Cardinals #1 Draft pick in the minors (Zack Cox), ready to be tested. Why bring him if we have Gil Velazquez?

Stan M

It appears that Carlos Lee has stopped hitting. That guy at 3B shouldn't even be in the ML.
That was an interesting report, LB. If true, the Detriot deal was the better of the two...as viewed at that time. Francona is a "let 'em play" type of manager. I think we need a more structured approach.
If the choice to go is Ozzie or Beinfest, the choice is obvious.
*Ozzie was hired to help straighten out Ramiriz. He failed
*Ozzie was expected to help draw from the Latino fans. His comments had the opposite effect.
*Ozzie was hired to fire up the team. Lou just might be right in saying the players aren't overly fond of him. They damn sure aren't fired up.
*Ozzie has proved over and over again that he is a very poor in-game tactician.

Regarding Mike Lowell, his personality is a lot like that of Ventura...who also has had no minor league experience.

Flav C.

Lowell, Connine, Francona, Ozzie, etc... Here we are discussing who the coach will be while the product we have on the field is laughable, with very little to be hopeful for next year. Boni, Reyes, Stanton, Buehrle, JJ, and Nolasco (as bad as he can be sometimes) are the only "major-league-everyday-players" we can be hopeful will be in the 25-men roster on Opening Day. It is very little. No depth at all, just like this season.

Logan Morrison is a big question mark. No one really knows what kind of hitter he is or can be. Is he going to be fully healthy after two surgeries in the same knee? Are the Marlins finally going to give him 1B for good? Is he finally going to be able to hit to opposite field?

Ruggiano and Solano were nice surprises this year, but it is unknown how they will fare playing an entire season.

Lee and Dobbs are good veteran presences, but better if used as platoon infield players, or pinch-hitters. They are not everyday players.

Eovaldi, Turner, the jury is still out on them.

Brantly seems to be good, but will end his first major league season with around 100 at bats. It is very little to have a very good assessment.

Our bullpen is a disaster, with the exception of Cishek. Hopefully kids like Ramos, Koehler, and calling up Caminero can bring some positives as relievers.

Gorkys maybe an interesting option as utility man. Surely a Triple A threat.

Here we are with Gil Velazquez....Yes, Gil Velazquez on 3B...a 33 year old veteran with 14 years in the minors playing 3B. Why not give a chance to Zack Cox, a #1 draft pick by the Cardinals, who had a good season in Jacksonville? Afraid of "starting the clock" on the kid as a major leaguer? Will it cost a couple more dollars to this organization? We gave away a #1 draft pick, a 3B, on Dominguez and we have another #1 draft pick for 3B and...don't call the kid up. Let's use the washed up minor league veteran instead.

From the 9 players in the lineup last night, 6 started this season in the minor leagues, either in the Marlins organization, or somewhere else. Only Reyes was in the Opening Day lineup. How can this team be taken seriously by anyone?

Ozzie was not hired to help straighten out Ramirez. Whatever reporter wrote that, it is ridiculous. No coach can straighten out a lost case.

My point with all I wrote is, no matter who the coach is. You can bring La Russa, Joe Torre, Lowell, Francona, Connine, it doesn't matter. The results will be horrible regardless.

As long as this FO continues managing the Marlins as a bad Triple A team, we will continue having Triple A results. They might as well bring in a minor league coach, he will feel at home.

Flav C.

To me, if the choice is Ozzie or Beinfest, the choice is obvious.
* 3 times last place in NL East. 2nd consecutive this season.
* 6 out of 11 seasons with negative record.
* Bad drafting.
* Bad players development.
* Major disaster with big budget.

By the way, Beinfest: What in the world happened the other day with our short A affiliate, the Jammestown Jammers, New York - Penn league? One day is a Marlins affiliate and the next day belongs to the Pirates. Cutting costs again? Way to go!

Beinfest, please leave. Do us all a favor: Take with your two best buddies (Jennings and Hill), St.Claire, Eddie Perez, Bo Porter, Kearns, Buck, Bell, Bryan Petersen, and whoever else I forgot to mention here.

Stan M

Flav, you are our resident statistician so maybe you can tell us how many wins Buehrie would have with a different bullpen.

Much of what you say above is only too true, but I am going to try to put a slightly more positive spin on things.
1B...Morrison can't possibly be worse than Gabby was last year and his pedigree says he should be much better.
2B...Salerno is at least the equivalent of Infante and in my opinion, actually better than the Infante of 2012 whose defense wasn't up to his 2011 standards.
SS...I think we can expect Reyes to be slightly better next year for he was awful for the first two months this year.
3B...No comment except to say that I should have said that Ozzie was supposed to TRY to improve on Hanley's performance. And it was far more than one reporter who felt as I wrote. I'm still hoping for Alex Gordon here.
LF...Whomever is out there will be at least a defensive improvement on LoMo and shuld hit as well or better...much better.
CF...Bono will hopefully miss much less time and it is a different team when he is in the lineup.
RF... As good as Stanton was this year, he missed significent playing time as well. Hopefully that won't happen again.
C.... I don't care if Bradley had no ABs this season, he simply has to be better than Buck who couldn't hit his weight.
P....2013 will be a transitional year while we wait for our kids late in the year or in 2014. So I hope that the team pitches Turner and Eovaldo all year and also gives Koehler a chance. All that kid does is win.
BP...could it possibly be worse than it has been this year? I think not.

As you say, Flav, Gorkys is right now a AAAA player. However, he does remind me of the very raw Bono of a few years ago. Should he learn to utilize his speed as Bono did, watch out!

Stan M

Flav, if Beinfest is in charge of player development, then you raise an excellent point. As for poor drafting, doesn't the front office have to follow the scouts recommendations and also think of how much money that our beloved owner is willing to invest in a draft choice? Beinfast has shown at least some positive results and, in my opinion, he must always be evaluated when also considering what Loria would allow. Can you think of any positive results to date as a result of Ozzie's leadership?

We have a slight, and I hope gentlemanly disagreement here. However I'm sure we would both agree that all would/could be different if we had almost any other owner. Unfortunately, he can't be fired. Tarred and feathered...maybe, but not fired.

Stan M

Some food for thought. Beinfest has to know his jobis very much on the line. Considering that, would he have brought up Cox or a 33 YO has been to fill in at 3B? Would he have made sure we had a third catcher so that we could pinch hit with Bradley when he wasn't starting? Would he let Coghlan languish in AAA ball? My point is that Beinfest was obviously not the decision maker in most or all of these instances. Then who was?

Wayne L Windsor

If reports are true that Loria went against advise by his BB people and signed Buck and Bell, how can he have the balls to blame Beinfest or Ozzie. Until he quits meddling in baseball operations this team isn't going anywhere.
Loria, PLEASE sell the team!

stu harmon

All the posters here please realize the Marlins and the Mets will be at the rear end of the nl east for a very long time. Until they can get decent , competitive players here all the front office stuff and the manager and coaching stuff wont make a bit of difference. Some say bring in Lowell with no experience because the St Louis guy and Chi whitesox guy are doing a great job with little experience. The big difference is we have the bozo Loria who should stick to art dealing and leave the baseball decisions to the baseball people. Maybe Marlin fans should start to root for Freddie Gonzalez team in Atlanta or Joe Girardis team in New York as they were two decent guys who didnt put up with Lorias BS. Posted by Stu By the way for all the Yankee haters read the current new yorker article on Joe Girardi and you will love him even more and maybe convert.

art behr

It's so easy just hire Ivan Rodriguez and have your hitting/piching coach as manager plus old catcher's always makes good managers

Flav C.

Stan, completely agree with your last statement regarding the owner.
As far as Beinfest, its the old story of "the buck stops here". Player Development is under Dan Jennings, who actually works for Beinfest. As the head of baseball operations, the buck stops with him.

And just to make clear, I'm no fan of Ozzie and I really don't like his style of coaching, and running his mouth. But at the same time I think it is hard to evaluate his job as a coach this season with all the turmoil and bad decisions off the field.

I'd like for once to see a coach having continuity. If he has to go, well...I'm sure there won't be a lot of players or fans actually sad. Maybe some tears of joy.

Stu - I agree with you. I'm not only cheering for Fredi and Girardi, but also cheering for Uggla, Cabrera, and Anibal. I'd like to see one of them having the same satisfaction Cody Ross had when he became champion with the Giants right after being shown the door by the Marlins ownership.

spitballer

With the price the Dodgers sold for & the Marlins having a new stadium...it would seem that most mlb teams values have gone way up. I would bet that the Marlins value is at a all time high. With Loria already into his 70's it just makes smart business sense to sell the team. There must be something that is preventing him from doing so.

Marlin Fan

Agree with all the above posts . Unfortuantely even if we improve , we will still be no where near the Nationals, Braves, or Phillies . Who knows maybe the Mets may be improved . At least they have a power hitting 1st baseman, a premier 3rd baseman , a good young 2nd baseman, good young SS , an Ace pitcher , and well.....
Don't think the fish will see the postseason for quite some time .

stu harmon

The "Hammer" Hank Goldberg was on the radio this am and he thinks Ozzie will be back along with Beinfest. He feels not fair to give Ozzie only one year and then done with the players he had this year.Plus the cheap Marlins will owe Ozzie another $7.5 million and cant really walk away from that amount. Also hes a Beinfest guy and thinks he did a good job with the exception of the disastrous trade a few years ago with the Tigers. We gave up a future triple crown winner and received basically nothing in return as the players we received are no longer here. Marlins will have to get used to half empty stadium again as fans in South florida will not support a losing team. Guess who gets stuck with the bill to pay for the "white elephant" stadium the sucker citizens of Dade county who were mislead by their political leaders and the lying Marlin front office who had the $ to pay more but essentially lied and said they didnt. Posted by Stu

richiej

this is not only a losing team, but they are not loveable. if any of you are old enough to remember the 1962 Mets, they were as poor a team as the 2012 Marlins, but, the 1962 Mets were loveable and people supported them and their colorful manager, Casey Stengal. When the Mets were putting the team together, Casey was asked "how will you start putting a team together?" He responded, "well you need a catcher, because without a catcher, you will get a lot of passed balls." typical of the type comments that came from Casey. RIP

MOE THE FAN

Hey Richie. try to get "Can't Anybody Here Play This Game?" It is Jimmy Breslin's book about the 1962 Mets. It's great. Casey was a riot. As a 14 year old at the time, the Mets were just so much fun! All thanks to Casey and the rest of the improbable ballplayers.

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