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Gameday blog: N.C. State 38, UM 28 (F)

MIAMI -- The Canes are in Raleigh today to face the red-hot Wolfpack and are minus leading receiver Aldarius Johnson, who was suspended for violating a team rule and did not make the trip. The Canes are obviously playing for a better bowl game today. But it's N.C. State who has a lot more to play for -- they need a win to look up a bowl trip.

Nc_stateI'm here at home preparing to go watch Frank Haith's team take on Stetson at 3:30 p.m. at the BankUnited Center. But I'll be along for the ride in Raleigh, providing my thoughts on the game as it progresses. Our Susan Miller Degnan is up there checking in with me and says the skies are dark and the stadium lights are on at Carter-Finley Stadium. Let's hope that doesn't set the tone for Randy Shannon's team, which obviously doesn't want to end what has been a good season with back-to-back losses before bowl season.

The key to the game today is simple...
> Stop Russell Wilson. Bobby Bowden called him the mother of all running backs. Miami has to redeem itself after its debacle in Atlanta last week.
> Remember, DeMarcus Van Dyke will get his first start today opposite freshman Brandon Harris, getting his first start in over a month, at cornerback.

> Derron Thomas starts the game in the backfield -- call it a senior deal. Miami's offense fizzles and goes three-and-out on its first drive. Should we be surprised? The good news: Matt Bosher gets off a 61-yard punt to pin N.C. State deep in its own territory.
> Russell Wilson has turned out to be everything we've heard he was. He absolutely shredded UM on the Wolfpack's opening drive and then tossed a touchdown pass to Andre Brown with 7:42 left. It capped a 96-yard scoring drive. I smell a lot of trouble for UM today. This could get real ugly. N.C. State 7, UM 0.
> Patrick Nix isn't helping his cause. Another 3-and-out for the Canes on their second possession. Robert Marve tried to go deep to Sam Shields and he couldn't come down with the catch. The ball actually was thrown well. Shields has to snatch that ball out of the air.
> The Canes finally get off the field on third down after DeMarcus Van Dyke bats a pass away on N.C. State's second series. You got to give UM's secondary a little credit. They are getting very little support from the pass rush. It's tough to cover guys for 10 seconds.
> Someone blew some major coverage for N.C. State and the Canes are happy to take advantage. Dedrick Epps finds himself wide open and makes a beautiful over-the-shoulder catch for a 69-yard catch-and-run from Robert Marve. And just like that, the game is tied with 3:50 left in the first quarter. UM 7, N.C. State 7.
> Brandon Harris has finally made his first real big play as a Cane. N.C. State tries to run a trick play having Andre Brown throw the football and Harris steps in front of a Wolfpack receiver and returns it 24 yards to the N.C. State 45. Big play for Brandon.
> Javarris James makes his first appearance of the game on 4th down and 1 and picks up the first down. Maybe someone finally heard your complaints! Until then, we'd been seeing Graig Cooper on short running situations. Here's the best stat Baby J has -- only one carry for negative yardage this season.
> Baby J takes three consecutive carries and his last -- a dive into the end zone -- puts UM up with 13:09 left. Javarris has 4 carries for 42 yards. UM 14, N.C. State 7.
> Shades of Donovan McNabb, Russell Wilson just ran circles quite literally around Miami's defense, scoring on a 29-yard touchdown run with 10:44 left. He looked like Michael Vick in John Madden football 2003. Amazing. Miami's defensive line missed at least four opportunities to get to him. UM 14, N.C. State 14.
> Jacory Harris comes in on the fourth series (as usual) and moves UM downfield. But then, he makes a bad decision, trying to force the ball into triple coverage to Richard Gordon and DeAndre Morgan caught the tipped pass in the end zone for an interception.
> Miami's defense finally makes a play when Marcus Forston sacks Wilson on third down and five. And then, Sam Shields -- who had been playing great -- crashes into N.C. State's punter, giving N.C. State a first down. Tough play. Shields was trying to make a play and instead of getting flagged for running into the kicker, he gets roughing.
> Another great play by Marcus Forston keeps N.C. State out of the end zone. Forston just gets enough of Wilson on third down to sack him and forces the Wolfpack to settle for a field goal with 1:47 left. N.C. State 17, UM 14.
> By the way, it looks like defensive end Marcus Robinson suffered a groin strain on the previous series.

> Miami's defense just can't get a handle on Russell Wilson. Now, all of his first half running has opened up the passing lanes. The Canes were lucky Marcus Forston and company were able to hold the Wolfpack to a field goal on their opening possession. N.C. State 20, UM 14.
> Javarris James scored his second touchdown of the game giving Miami its second lead of the game. The Hurricanes ran the ball six times on the seven-play scoring drive, sprinkling a little Baby J with a little Super Coop. UM 21, N.C. State 20.
> So much for that lead. N.C. State takes less than a minute to answer Miami's scoring drive as Wilson carves Brandon Harris and the secondary. N.C. State 28, UM 21.
> We keep forgetting how valuable Travis Benjamin is to the return game. Graig Cooper, Brandon Harris and company have done a good job filling in. But Benjamin is the game-breaker who can make the difference in a game like this.
> With 8:57 left to play N.C. State might have sealed this one up with a 42-yard field goal. Miami's last two possessions have gone nowhere and if the Canes don't score on this next possession, we're probably going to be headed to San Francisco next month for the Emerald Bowl.
> No Canes comeback today. Jacory Harris gets picked for the second time with 5:23 left and it basically seals the deal for N.C. State, which basically has to run out the clock to hold on for the victory.


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I just can't wait for tommy streeter aldarius Benjamin collier Byrd even shields gets a chance to see the field all at one time what a core plus sleepers like davon Johnson and etc plus baby j and using coop on the right plays that fit him and jacory at the helm this o will be powerful all this talent and we are not using it we have marve Shannon and nix there screwing us up maybe urban can give us some advice it kills me to see these guys not be used to there full expectations look spence forston and Robinson are proving they can play with the big boys at a young age aldarius and friends can't prove it cause Robbie can't get them the ball and nix doesn't have sense to let jacory play without having the world on his shoulders.

ur so right evan till Shannon grows a pair and put Harris in control on the feild we won't be bcs contenders hex we won't be acc contenders butch took a chance and used dorsey he magnified moss shockey Wayne portis parrish Johnson willis even butch all of them got into the league because they had a good qb to show there talent he was key despite his arm power he knew the feild and could get the ball in his playmakers hand till Shannon mans up he will be like coker stuck with a strong arm qb going nowhere but down remember when were ranked at almost #3 and gtech knocked us down with klye at the helm dejavu we went down ever since then please Shannon use the key (jacory) stop being ignorant

Punks and haters, please take a deep breath. I just got off the plane from Raleigh (brrr) and the Canes "ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE!" Most national publications picked them preseason to improve to 7-5. This is with 4 freshmen QBs, a second-year (ever) head coach, and three crucial defenders out for the season (Moncour, Phillips, McCarthy).
Yeah, it stinks, but I'm jacked about the future.
Those who bash Pat Nix: are you the same ones who ripped that "horrible" OC Larry Coker, who coached The U to point records?
Nix, et. al. call the same plays that many elite schools run. The difference is execution. UMs freshmen are better than the ones around the ACC and the Canes will be in that Top Five conversation in a couple of years.
Relax and GO CANES!

abacodreamin, you are too much of a fan - your bias. That's not an objective analysis. Nix is questionable, he did not even call the plays full time at GT. Also that GT coaching staff was fired, last year. We have more talent on this team than teams like (Utah and Boise St). The problem with this team is recuriting and coaching. We can recurit skills players but need offensive lineman who can block and open up holes, there are also critical to QB execution. On the coaching side, these highly skilled players are not being used effectively and are not improving from game to game.

Ignorant was taking Marve out of the game in the 2nd qtr when we were up a touchdown and then Harris threw a pick into triple coverage. As far as Marve not getting the ball to these guys when he does except for Epps Collier and Byrd, they drop the ball. I'd be hesitant and so would any other QB to throw it to Aldarius and the others that continue to drop passes that hit them in the hands. Ignorant was not spying a dual threat QB.

I am a 90 alum, and I bleed orange and green.
It's my first post of this sort - ever. My opinion.. I am so dissapointed in these UM teams the last few years, but rather than solely point the fingers at Nix and Shannon, I want to point out something that is obvious to me. The O-Line is a bunch of patty-cakes. I have watched every game this year and if you watch every scrum at the line of scrimmage our O-Line boys are getting beat. The line always gets pushed back down our throats. We no doubt have tons of play makers on both sides of the ball, but when your O-Line gets beat every down, our playmakers, our QBs are running for their lives every play. Nix and Shannon, (no coach for that matter) can establish a game plan under these circumstances. I think the true demise of the program was when Coker cleaned house with venerable proven assistant coach veterans such as Art Kehoe and Don Soldinger to save his own butt. Bring back Kehoe (even if it means offering him the Offensive Coordinator job).
I think Shannon & Co. know they need to recruit big O Linemen for the future. While S Florida is fertile recruiting grounds for playmakers, traditionally the big boys up front come from the breadbasket of this country. A dominant OLine like we had with McKinney & Co. during the 00-01 campaign shows that a dominating O-Line will not only open up the Offesive playmakers, but will also eat up valuable play clock time to keep that defense well rested.
Am I the only one who thinks this ???
I don't see any good in bashing Shannon and Nix and the rest of this team for lack of execution when all of the fingers are getting pointed at the QB's, WR's and D. If you don't have an O-Line, what's the point ?

I agree with you except for one point.
UF AND FSU Have lines with FLA players.

CC - I hear ya.
Figured I get called out on that...
Love what's going on in recruiting, but just wanted to make the point that some of our best in 01 were not from FLA... McKinnie (NJ), Haji-Rasuo (NJ), Romberg, (Canada), Bibla (PA)...
We can do it from FLA, and I am excited about what's going on locally, but just making the point that some of our past success on OLine has come from the North. Go Canes

The more college football games I watch the worse UM looks. Florida, USC, Oklahoma, OSU, Texas Tech, Kansas...all of those teams execute a game plan and play disciplined football. We look like a disorganized team and it's embarrasing.

I wanted Randy Shannon after Coker got axed, but I'm not feeling so good about our choice now. If we don't make a MAJOR improvement next year, Randy Shannon must go.

A good friend of mine asked me if the Hurricanes Senior and Junior classes were better than any team the Canes played this year. I responded by saying that these two classes are probably not in the top 75 amongst all college teams. I doubt that any players leaving this program for the next two years will be drafted. (That's right, forget about first round picks, they will not have any players drafted this year.) Next year will be iffy at best. When you mention other teams with freshmen, they are playing some freshmen. Miami only has freshmen to play. The upper class of this program is the worst since the group Erikson left behind. So lets give Randy Shannon a chance to complete out a program with his recruits. I do agree with most of you that Nix is not a quality coordinator. The team lacks conviction and execution. It seems as though Nix is coming up with the offense of the week. The most effective thing they have done all year was to throw the ball downfield to these young receivers. The quarterback draws, wide receiver screens, and run up the middle were plays that Nix became infaxuated with. The U is not West Virgina. They need to line up in a Pro Set like USC does and run a Pro Offense. Leave the mickey mouse offense to the one year wonders (West Virgina, Texas Tech, South Florida, etc.)

Things will get better.




cj I can see u are a little blind or don't know football but that pass jacory threw still hit the guy in his hands and I do think johnson is the leading reciever on the team so he's not dropping a whole lot and as for throwing into triple coverage marve did that when he tried his usual and tried to get the ball to epps and this is epps first game ballin more excuses for marve first it was receivers were to young to catch his hard thrown ball then receivers couldn't run route yet so that made him look bad then receivers wanted there friends to start so they dropped his passes what next I feel like the espn crew COME ON MAN we don't have time for marve and his one or two good throws and his fan club try to throw jacory under the bus like he hasn't saved us about everytime marve shows his true colors.

7 and 5, about as expected considering these are baby Canes. As the announcer said, better get your licks in this year, because when these baby Canes grow up, its gonna be time for reckoning.
The reason the Gaturd fans post here calling for Randy's head is because of his lockout of Urban Liar from South Florida, and the effect it will ultimately hav e on the Turds and the Canes. I predicted about 8 wins this year, and we still have a shot at that in the Emerald Bowl against Oregon State or Oregon. The Baby Canes battled all day long, but like I said, NC State is the best team in the Southeast right now.
As for the overrated SEC, look what Ga. Tech did to Georgia and what Clemson did to South Carolina. The SEC has about 10 Dwarfs right now, the ACC has no gimme game and 9 bowl eligbile teams. The best conference in America top to bottom, better than even the Big 12.

Dhcane - Do you know how to end a sentence?

sorry gayturd I didn't know this was English class worry about the 21 points u loss next week with harvin out enjoy blowin teams out this year because ur day is coming no future there who is ur back up u never know because urban leaves the first team in the whole game

Not to be an excuse maker but we are missing a serious amount of talent due to injuries.

Look at the injuries to our top talent: JJ, Benjamin (the two best offensive players)

Defense: Mccarthy, Eric Moncur (The two best defensive players coming into the year, not to mention Courtney Harris and R. Phillips)

Show me another top 20 team that has its two top offensive and defensive players out the majority of the year.

Every team gets banged up and loses players, but four for four? If we stayed relatively healthy, or lost lesser players we easily could have been at three losses.

The secondary needs talent. Losing P. Johnson in the recruiting wars really hurt. We need some hitters, and NFL type talent back there. Not sure if any of our current secondary make the NFL, and if you look at the U's history, we have had years where every starter is drafted. The coverage is not as bad as the tackling. GTech destroyed our secondary, NC State the same. I can still see Reddick taking a bad angle and missing an open field tackle against UNC to cost us the game with almost no time left.

Let's get some talent and unleash the offense. if that doesn't work out then clean house.

ur right plantation we lost big time with p Johnson I hope magee can help us fast did u see DVD get stiff armed man that was harsh he has to hit the weights he has speed I'm confident b.Harris will be a stud he is true freshman playing on a island against other good reciever he hasn't showed me R. Phillips potenial remember LSU Harris will be a stud


Defensive Tackle form Miami Northwestern Bulls Todd Chandler commits to the "U"!

Randy continuing the lockout of Urban Liar in south Florida. Good work!


how does marve only throw 11 passes that game? thats the best hes looked passing the whole season dudes gotta throw more then 11 passes. and man i cant wait for anthony reddick to get the hell outta here. and take ryan hill, romeo davis, glenn cook with him. watching them take angles to these players you realize how slow these freakin guys are its insane. anthony reddick couldnt tackle terry schiavo

I mean I don't know how anyone can defend this coaching staff. I like Randy Shannon, but he needs to be the program's head recruiter, not football coach.

There was NO REASON, even with the youth this team had, that the U couldn't have won the coastal. Problem is, Shannon and Nix have no idea what is going on. This is Shannon's first head coaching job anywhere, and it will be his last, unfortuantely for him. Nix has never done anything, but more importantly he they are too spineless to make a decision on a quarterback. They are letting two fathers play them, pick one (hopefully Harris) and go with it. Be creative, play them both at the same time, play Marve a couple plays a game too, but in the end Harris will make those weapons better.

Think about it this year, anytime we played a big game, we got out coached, UF (even though we played a good game, Nix just wanted to cover the spread) UNC, FSU (come on, letting the NOLES outcoach us???) and more importantly G. Tech. We have the players, even if they are young, look at Alabama, besides that offensive line (and it is a huge part of their success) they have young guys all over the place and are winning. Why? Coaching!!!

Randy has one more year, and then I say go get the Gordon guy from the University of Tulsa. We would score more points than any team in the country.

The sky is falling ...

Some interesting points from another SoFla newspaper:

Aldarius Johnson is on a pace to finish with a team-best 350 receiving yards, which would be the lowest by the team's leading receiver since 1978.

The Hurricanes are unlikely to produce a 1,000-yard rusher for the sixth consecutive season.

UM's current sum of three interceptions ranks last nationally and would be the single-season low in school history.

Marcus Robinson and Allen Bailey, the team leaders in sacks, have four apiece. UM's 26 sacks would rank as the fifth lowest total since 1981.

Now, I understand someone's earlier comparisons with other frosh across the country, but pls remember that they are also playing with more experienced teams (i.e. Alabama's Jones has a 5th yr QB in Parker Wilson).

If I was Kirby: Ask Randy to let Nix go. If he doesn't, let Randy go and go after (again) go after Mike Leach! With the choice of qb's and a stable of wr talent, he could score points!

Randy Shannon is my brother from another mother. We can both recruit, we have no clue how to coach, we're both going to get fired and someone is going to come in and win a championship with our players.

Does the scoreboard in your stadium have 3 digits? Hire me and let's find out!

that's sad our leading reciever has a team high 350 yards we haven't had a reciever break 800 or 700 since Dorsey our last real starting qb. Jacory jacory jacory let us see him a full game

plantation, georgia bulldogs. might be why they arent top 10. benjamin is scared. even when healthy he hesitates. these players have talent somewhere in there, but each game should be a progression. does anyone really believe that over the offseason, someone will be teaching them. doubt it. shannon will be there next year, but its time to show improvement or get out.

dear santa, please send me a game plan for our bowl game.. randy and pat

marcus Robinson sean spence marcus forston true stud I have to congrat those guys even though we looked bad as a unit keep it up fellow u writing ur check to the league

Dude you guys just lost to NC State.


That is WEAK!!!!!!!!!!

There is no excuse in the world you can come up with for that one.

UM should be talking to Rob Chudzinski right now. Shalala needs to give him some Randy Shannon money to come back to UM. Donna, you ain't gonna make any BCS money unless you spend some.

There is no need to make any excuses. This is a young team that will get better. Anyone expecting anything more than what this team did was being unrealistic. Remember Florida had four (4) losses last season.

I am excited about the future. The Canes remind me of the 1998-1999 Era. Its fun watching the ride back up the hill.

Canes Junkie:
Its unrealistic to think that Chud will take an OC job at Miami at this point. He will be looking to move up into a HC position in college or the NFL.

Miami needs to look for a young bright mind in the Div II area. You know both Rich Rodrieguez and Brian Kelly started out as Graduate Assistants at West Virgina?

There is plenty of good people out there, Miami needs to find one.

If Miami plays Notre Dame in a bowl can anyone win ???? Shannon has shown me nothing in two years,Coker looks like god now !
Give Randy one more year then fire him and Donna S too. Ever since Dave Lieberman retired UM has gone down hill.Lieberman had brains and was the man behind the scenes.
Last two games are a disgrace to U of Miami and Dolphin Stadium sucks also!
I am a Cane for 47 years and this team has no heart !!! A total disgrace !!!

i just want to say great year freshman if it was not for you guys we would not have won 5 games i think the defence will be fine next year once we get these no tackeling seniors gone and please reddick dont try to get another year we need that spot for a real football player as for the offense please randy let the guys fight it out in the spring and lets go with one quarterback the two quarterback system is hurting the team let the guys know what is going on give both a fair chance and if the other cant deal with it and wants to move on then so be it and lets all pray that nix can get this offense going there are no excuses next year it cant be blamed on young receivers or young quarterbacks if this starts happening next year we;ll know it was the coaches all along lets hope thats not the case although i still have alot of doubt about nix way to go kids thank you for playing for the UUUUUUUUUUU good look next year

DhCane first of all as I remember it the ball was tipped by the defensive back because the ball was underthrown and as far as knowing football, as much and as long as I've studied, played, and coached QBs and football over the years I'd say I am as and more knowledgable about the game than anybody else. So with that being said Johnson should have more catches than anybody else seeing as though they open the offense up for Harris when he is in there so he can supposedly shine and keep marve under center or not letting him throw downfield. Just look at the games objectively and and see how many balls have been dropped by johnson on passes that Marve hit him in the hands with that ended drives and you'll see what I'm talking about. Beside Byrds better than him anyway. Did you look at the game yesterday and see that Marve was effecient and playing well when he was taken out. Jacory made some nice throws but wasn't great either. When he did come in the 4th qtr NC State was in a prevent so just like the week before at Tech anybody other than Kirby Freeman would have looked good. Our problem isn't the QB any way its our lineman and until we get that fixed any offense that we implement is going to struggle.

It's hard to watch the Canes Struggle but lets remember it took Coker 6 years to wreck what Butch created so it's going to take Randy a while to rebuild us. The good thing about Randy is he is not looking to go anywhere but here so if he succeeds were set for a while rather than getting someone in here that is gone in 3 to 4 years for the NFL. I give this staff another year and then see what we look like. But I do agree we don't look inspired or aggressive at all and that really bothers me more than the losses. Maybe its those ugly uniforms and shoes. It's like Butch said if a player looks good they most like will play good and the way we looked the last two weeks its no wonder we got our rearends kicked.


These kids have a lot of heart, the problem is we are playing with a decided schematic disadvantage.

cj so what u telling me is the system is set up against marve come on now this man has thrown more than Harris and has failed he has more ints than tds explain that look at that fade he threw vtech game no touch he has a strong arm and that's it and that don't make a qb u know that coach and jacory didn't lead us back and that is what people were waiting for so they can say marve is this and that if he was they would have kept him va duke and even ucf where threw three picks wake this guy had one big run that won't win ten games stop making excuses Harris has proven himself and he needs a time to really shine not come in and win the game under pressure marve had his chance nc game and guess what blew it as for Byrd and johnson u never will know whose best if ur boy stays at the helm personally neither one will touch streeter but if marve is in he will look bad to come on coach cj think

DhCane Jacory hasn't proven anything other than he can throw a couple of fades against Duke and a punt pass against Virginia that a better secondary would have intercepted hence his picks against NCSU. I do not argue with anyone that both have thrown too many ints however like i said before, again IF YOU LOOK AT THE GAMES OBJECTIVELY YOU WILL SEE THAT HAD THE PASSES NOT BEEN DROPPED OUR PASSING GAME WITH MARVE WOULD NOT HAVE BOGGED DOWN AND YOU WOULD THEN SEE THAT WE WOULD HAVE SCORED MORE POINTS AND WON MORE. Hence the UNC game when Farquerson dropped a touchdown that would have won the game after Marve drove us down the field. Come on man! Just look at the game films. Marve does have a bigtime arm and everything else a COACH wants except for a good offensive line that could give him some time to scan the field before taking off and running for his life. I do beleve that Streeter could be a deep threat with his height but to say he is better than Byrd,I got to see the guy play first. Hopefully he will be used correctly. Just look at the films and think.

ok cj take marve as ur starter and see the canes contiune to fall off but I'm in the real world and u telling me the o line ain't given this man time Harris seemed to have time coop had holes to break I guess they don't block when marve is in he needs a year to see or maybe he cant look off and the guy is 6 ft 1 inch tall name a qb in the league that size and thats what a coach looks for i might as well get a strong arm olinemen to qb if that is what a ciach looks for manny even knows jacory is the best qb and I can see u aren't from dade or don't studied like u said cause u don't even know streeter just that he has height unc game marve had good pass to kayne the other fell into the DBS lap it was high and the guy had to strech his whole body to att to catch it come on man Im done man till u start talking real football

That's cool, I have no problem taking Marve and he is not the reason for Miami falling off. That would be due to a terrible prior coach in Coker, Poor play calling , bad offensive lineman, Poor use of a starting QB (Marve) with real talent, letting Kehoe and Soldinger gone. And NO they, the offensive line that is can't pass block no matter who is in there hence Jacory's injured arm. You do know there is a difference between pass blocking and run blocking right? The holes for Cooper has nothing to do with pass blocking, that is run blocking. OK. And 6ft 1 versus 6ft 4 is not going to be a deciding factor because typically a QB looks for lanes to throw the ball through since typically lineman are taller than QBs aside from centers that is. Not to mention who is Manny? He's a reporter not a coach. He does what you and others that really don't know anything about the game of football do. You look at the outside of the car and never look at whats under the hood so to speak. Thats an analogy by the way. The average FAN always loves the backup and really don't know what makes a good QB or football team. Thats why us coaches don't listen to you people when it comes to making decisions about our teams and players. Also how long have you been a fan might I ask? In years not your whole life or any of that vague mess. I'd say as far as knowledge of the Canes since the first national title I know about as much as anyone on this blog about Miami. Any time you would like to compare notes just let me know. And what else do you know about Streeter than his height and he's been injured all year. Enlighten me, please. Bottom line until he plays a game nothing matters until he's on the field anyway. And on the UNC game show me one QB in that situation that doesn't depend on his receiver to make that play. Glad he spells his name with a K instead of a C. I'm sure you will check the blog for my reply so I'll be looking forward to your rebutal, that is if you want to talk about some "real football" that is. I can see you are very passionate about the Miami Hurricanes as am I. And believe me bro nobody wants to see them get back to where they used to be before the Coker mess than myself. Dominating scaring the crap out of teams when they take the field, jaw rocking hits and blowing people out. Its been nice trading opinions, facts, and barbs with you over the last few days.


how can you judge marve or harris behind that awful OL?

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