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Limited immunity just one way the NCAA plans to try and nail UM says CBS Sports report

If you thought Nevin Shapiro was Miami's only troublemaker -- guess again.

Robert Marve According to this article by CBS Sports.com Senior Writer Dennis Dodd, former Hurricanes Robert Marve and Arthur Brown and four other former Hurricanes recruits who are now at other schools (also implicated by Shapiro for taking impermissible gifts while at UM) are the people who will probably serve as the NCAA's best informants during its investigation. 

According to Dodd, their payoff for revealing their own indiscretions and those they witnessed others doing is limited immunity -- essentially becoming an informant in exchange for avoiding punishment themselves. CBS Sports spoke to NCAA vice president of enforcement Julie Roe Lach, who basically spelled it out that way without specifically talking about UM.

"The enforcement staff has been given, by the membership, a pretty important investigative tool," Roe Lach told CBSSports.com in an exclusive interview.

"Limited immunity" is a little-known procedure granted to NCAA investigators to get information from a player "when such an individual otherwise might be declared ineligible for intercollegiate competition," according to the NCAA Manual.

Roe Lach put it another way: "When we think that's really our only shot of getting that information."

Marve was among the 72 current or former UM players named in the Yahoo! report who allegedly took extra benefits from Shapiro. He is alleged to have taken a cash gift, received access to VIP nightclubs and a strip club and treated to at least two dinners at pricey restaurants.

And like Brown (now at Kansas State with his younger brother Bryce), Florida's Matt Patchan and Andre Debose and Georgia's Orson Charles, Marve has been cleared in the last week by the NCAA of having any eligibility issues according to their respective schools.

Monday, UM President Donna Shalala said in a video statement that 15 student-athletes -- she didn't specify which sports -- had their eligibility in question. Yahoo! fingered 12 current football players (quarterback Jacory Harris, receivers Travis Benjamin and Aldarius Johnson, tight end Dyron Dye, defensive linemen Marcus Forston, Olivier Vernon, Adewale Ojomo, and Marcus Robinson, linebacker Sean Spence, safeties Vaughn Telemaque and Ray-Ray Armstrong, cornerback Jojo Nicolas) and basketball forward DeQuan Jones as student-athletes who broke rules.

Charles Robinson, who has been involved with nearly all of Yahoo!'s investigations into college programs who broke rules of late, told Yahoo! radio host Tim Brando Monday that he believed former Alabama defensive tackle Marcel Dareus was given limited immunity to get information on the North Carolina players who attended a party with an agent. Dareus was suspended just two games last season after talking to the NCAA and required to pay back the $1,787.17 received in impermissible benefits to the charity of his choice. But unlike most of those Tar Heel players implicated, he got to play last season.

"I can't say this with absolute certainty [but] to me, [the fact players implicated at other schools have been cleared] suggests [the NCAA] has already reached out to those players at other schools and they've cooperated with the NCAA," Robinson said of the situation at UM.

Just my opinion, but at this point I would have to guess none of the current 15 student-athletes at UM are going to be cleared, not when the school is trying to play nice and not with the NCAA allegedly making these "limited immunity" deals with former recruits and players. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if UM decides on its own to hand out the punishment in an attempt to gain favor with the NCAA.

The opinion of most experts, though, like Robinson, is that the NCAA is more concerned about going after the big fish. And in this case, the 72 players implicated by Shapiro and their transgressions are really sardines. As Robinson said Monday, the NCAA can't make athletes no longer in college talk about anything. The big fish the NCAA is after are UM's administration and its former coaches.

Former basketball coach Frank Haith, assistants Jake Morton and Jorge Fernandez and former football assistants Joe Pannunzio, Clint Hurtt, Jeff Stoutland and Aubrey Hill have to be at the front of the big fish line at the moment. Would the NCAA cut a "limited immunity" deal with one of them? Probably not. But if their testimony could prove higher ups such as former athletic directors Paul Dee, Kirby Hocutt and Shalala knew of Shapiro and other improprieties, well, what makes you think they wouldn't?

Look, I'm not trying to defend Shapiro by any means (he's a convicted felon for crying out loud), but in the end this is all going to come down to what the NCAA determines on its own that Miami did wrong, not what Yahoo! reported or Shapiro alleged. Many of you have tried to find holes in Yahoo!'s 11-month investigation. I did too. But it appears pointless. 

UM isn't going to court to defend itself from Shapiro or Yahoo!. There won't be an impartial jury that gets to listen to Tyrone Moss, Randy Phillips, Devin Hester (or any of the other former Canes who allegedly partied on Shapiro's dime) try and explain or defend themselves. The NCAA doesn't care about any of that because they are the judge, jury and executioner.

And right now, college's governing body doesn't care how it gets its information -- cutting breaks for guilty parties elsewhere to get after the guys still wearing orange and green. That should tell you one thing: they want to nail UM. And this is only the beginning. They've started with the sardines. The big fish -- and the real trouble -- is next.


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Those involved should pay the penalty, not the inocent. That means existing players who were not involved should not have to pay a penalty and not play in a bowl. The NCAA needs to change it's penalty system. Instead of no bowl's they should fine the University big time. Say $30 million dollars or something. And boosters who did the wrong doing should be sued for that same amount. Big money guys will not put their livelyhood on the line if they know big fines could be levied. That would help curtail some of this.

Anything cash should be denied, because you can't prove it. Pictures mean nothing. NCAA looks desparate looking to interegate former players. I can't wait until this is over. The NCAA is running out of time, they know UM has hired lawyers,they know they must show evidence.

GC. Hate to break your bubble. The NCAA has the hammer and the U is the bug going to be squashed. If there is a deal with those players it's bad.

This is not going to away anytime soon. More and more information is still yet to come. Everyone is looking for more facts - including me.

Good article Manny,

What we as CANES need to remember is that this is not a criminal court the U is facing, it is the NCAA. They set the standard for what kind of "evidence" they will accept as "proof" at whatever level "doubt" they wish to apply. If everyone denies all cash, then it is likely that the NCAA will believe that everyone is not being forthcoming and transparent, and the NCAA may well choose to be even more punitive. There is no appeal. In other cases, the NCAA appears to have been influenced by self-punishment exercised before the sanctions are handed down and it appears to me that this is the path to take. While the media is beating the drum for the death penalty, I do not believe that there is evidence of the type of loss of institutional control that was present for SMU, and while the transgressions were apparently large in aggregate, in the individual cases they were not nearly as large as some other schools in recent history. Time to sit those seriously accused, announce some sort of enhanced self-regulation enforcement compliance program, have all coaches and administration personnel associated with the athletic department make a sworn statement about lack of involvement (or leave) and get on with life. DEAL WITH IT, do not deny reality.

The NCAA has always hated the UM. All one has to do is look at the referee bias over the years, accompanied by sanctioned media types as well. Since UM is on an upswing with Coach Golden, this is a great time for the NCAA to stick it into the hearts of the University.

"Limited immunity?" Really disgusting stuff. Perhaps one of the few positives is that the named coaches are all at other schools.

The NCAA ought to focus on making reforms that affect all schools and the sport in general. But when you have puny bureaucrats worried about outlawing cream cheese on a bagel, there is little hope for them to do other than make an example of their favorite outlaw. Then they can look really effective. Sad times...

"limited immunity" means you will say anything to save your own skin,which = RAT....

This corpse is beginning to rot. It needs to be buried sooner rather than later.

I think all those excoaches and Kirby should be very concerned right now, mainly Hurtt Haith and Hill. The fifteen players should be given some sort of suspension to fit the crime but the current staff and AD had nothing to do with this. I know by taking action against the other coaches will effect other schools but why do you think they left UM, they being the adults need to take the biggest hit. Some sanctions and probations,loss of scholarships but the NCAA has to remember everyone involved is gone as far as the coaches. No guts Marve R.I.P. no NFL for you

Gaytors trolls: You beetches never learn. You cheer about the U's problems. Wishful and wistful thinking by sorry jealous beetches. Don't you ever learn? This happened to us before and your attitude and trash made every U fan to stick together, and then the U ran off an unprecedented dominant streak. Keep talking

Figures an article comes out extalling "how hard" the 11 month investigation was for the reporter. ooooh ahhhh. I am impressed. Wow. he really sweated out. makes it sound like he was undercover in Afganistan with the Taliban or something what a bunch of self-promoting, self-indulgent yahoos.

The NCAA and the media are in bed with each other and temporarily brought in a w-hor-e for a threesome.

ltcdolphin, can't believe it but you're 100% right. No matter how much the NCAA dislikes Miami, something happened that was against NCAA rules. You're (not you ltcdolphin) all blaming the enforcement of rules, and not that act that caused the violations. It is what it is.

Limited immunity? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

That proves that the NCAA is a gestapo that makes its own rules, there is no due process, there is no ethics. If you smell guilty, who cares, you go down. If you associate with guilty parties, you go down.

Does the nCAA even care that a program up I-75 had 321 arrested players? I know that didnt involve NCAA cheating, but geez.

When Hurtt left abruptly 2 years ago it felt really weird. Reportedly Shannon was upset about the way Hurtt was recruiting certain players. I wonder if Shannon knew Hurtt was OK with recruiting dirty and basically forced him to leave? Shannon was not a great coach but I do believe that he tried to do things the right way and is a man of integrity. I love Al Golden and hope he stays but I do still admire, appreciate and respect Shannon.

Limited immunity is used everyday by prosecutor. Nothing gestapo about it. If there was nothing there, there would be no need for immunity.

I think we all have to simply face the music, embrace the horror, and accept it.... UM is F'D. BIG TIME.

The fact that allthe former Canes are now going silent and saying things like, "I am not thinking about Miami and I am only focused on my career." or "Don't talk to me about Miami I only want to talk about the Denver Broncos" is telling. That means that it is all TRUE !!! They all took money and hookers etc etc. Wake up people. Stop saying things like.. NCAA is fishing and that if they took cash it cannot be proven or pictures don't mean anything. Maybe independently they don't but all together they build a big case. Miami should be ashamed and embarrassed. I have been a HUGE fan as long as I can remember. I have been ridiculed by neighbors for years because people always said to me that Miami was dirty etc etc. I defended The U always and now I look like a complete idiot. While I don't want Miami to get comepletely screwed in this whole thing, I fear they will be. The recruits will decommit and Miami will be left with nothing, players this year will be suspended for numerous games, and I have a feeling Golden will depart...and I dont blame him.

IF players are going to be suspended-- what in the world are they waiting for-- it makes no sense to continue with players they know will not be available-- this is crazy crazy and this at least would give the fans and coaches initial closure on the upcoming games. The rest will stink, but at least we can have some sense of knowing what we will have on the field. God bless coach Golden and his staff for having to deal with this. The way things were going was fantastic-- all positive stuff up until this happened. What a darn shame-- it felt like having a big baloon and suddenly someone stuck a pin in it---- Will always love the canes--- and damn shapiro and those who should have known about it--- i dont blame the kids as much as i blame those people, the ones that preach to the kids to not do anything wrong- then turn their backs to it all. Thank god for Golden and his staff--- if they can, i believe they will give everything they got and get everything from the team and move forward.
What a shame.

I will always love the U, and will continue to. But I blame everyone, the players included. My son played showcase baseball, and was recruited by several D-1 programs. Even at this level, in a relatively mid tier college sport, there were $100.00 handshakes the players gladly accepted. The players should not be left off the hook. They knew what they were doing.

What I don't understand is how does it make sense to give guys who transfered limited immunity, but make kids who stayed pay the price. Seems unfair to me. I know it's speculation, but Marve and Brown had some of the bigger transgressions in the Yahoo piece. Giving them immunity, and then turning around and making guys who just took an $83 dinner at Benihana (if true) pay seems the opposite of the message the NCAA would want to send.

Limited immunity is used all the time in NCAA investigations as well as criminal investigations and in civil actions as well. Get real. Ever hear of the witness protection program?? Nobody likes a snitch, but the majority of people when threatened with personal harm will sing like a canary to save whatever part of the anatomy will get past the Herald censors.

Keep this in perspective. The NCAA is highly focused on COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE as the most serious end of the spectrum down to minutia like cream cheese for bagels. It is the nature of a bureaucracy and that is what we are dealing with here. The actions Shapiro talks about and the ones that the NCAA has likely discovered independently do not appear to have involved a competitive advantage (certainly not by the onfield performance, but I digress). Oregon with COACHES authorizing and paying 25 large to encourage a recruit to sign there has a lot more to worry about on that count than the U. The fact pattern at SMU was very different in terms of the "bad actors" there being institutional figures while here we have a criminal athletic supporter and coaches who have left the U. The SMU and Oregon situations are drastically different.

By initiating the sanctions with suspensions NOW rather than waiting for the NCAA to come up with them may very well serve to limit the sanctions. It will demonstrate a willingness to accept responsibility and to display some contrition. If the U waits, plays the games with the ahletes who will be suspended in the future, then those games would be forfeited. The NCAA could easily take an attitude of appreciating the self-inflicted punishment to encourage other programs to take similar self-corrective actions, just as it could take a position of giving stiffer penalites to demonstrate to other programs that a "stone wall" defense of denial and lack of acceptance will result in more harsh penalties. Since I believe that we are going to receive some sanctions, I believe that it would be better to do those things that might help in minimizing the future pain. At the same time, I am just guessing and nobody outside the investigations really knows what they know and what they are looking to do.

Anyone who thinks that this is going to pass with NO SANCTION is not looking at reality. I can understand as a fan the upset and anger. I have it too, but there is too much smoke for no fire at all, particularly given the overall attitude toward the U everywhere other than South Florida.

If current UM players are suspended than NCAA is announcing a CLEAR bias AGAINST the university and could care less about the actual infractions. No way that scorned former players like Marve and Brown be allowed immunity.

Michael a blind dog can find a bone and with practise more often than not. Was wondering if that was you from the dolphin blog. Glad to see you are not a herald troll. Other than a little English thing we seem to have some things in common. Now from NYC you say you like fishing.

Alan, it's simple and the NCAA rules. They get info from them that they can't elsewhere, bingo, limited immunity. You may not like it, but live with it. Marve and his father are happy to play gottcha just like Shapiro. You get in the mud with scum you eventually pay the price

1. This practice of dolling out gifts to recruits and players must be going on at other big time programs. I do not believe UM could be that different from other teams!
2 I donated money to the University and bought season tickets. Thousands of others have done the same. I do not want UM to be banned from postseason bowl games and have nothing to play for. I want future recruits to
stick with UM. The NCAA should have the maximal cinsideration to those players who lived by the rules and to those fans who support the University and the team.
3. Al Golden snd his great staff should not be hindered in any way based on any past discretions.
4. The NCAA should investigate every big time school just as they are Miami. Then we will see what really goes on around the country.
I suspect it is the same everywhere.
ML Cane Fan

expatinbrasil: Your penmanship is good, but your content stinks....you should know that the NCAA is out of hand in many ways....if anyone needs the death penalty, it is the NCAA..

The 12 or so players that have been exposed should pay a penalty if they are deemed to be guilty...same goes with any other coach or administrator...any other penalty to the program should be considered communism at its highest..

Gwp. Difference here is communism has no rules, there were rules and if they were broken take your punishment and drive on.

im still all confused about the whole situation... my question is now what are the NCAA going to do? Are they going to shut every athletic program down? If they do the school is going to loose alot of money because we have loyal fan no matter what the problem is who look forward to going to all the games just for the sport. Who really cares about the specific players that were involved what we really need to look at is the people who put these players in this position which to me was a set up.

Why did the U continue to fire coaches and administrators instead of self-reporting and cleaning up the program? Simple answer....'competitive advantage'.

Turn a blind-eye and let the 'booster' keep the players 'entertained'...you know 'a U thing'.

The is going to be a lenthy court battle. The death penalty is not going to happen if it did, the U will have to reach out to the Florida Politicians and have it stopped. The NCAA listen to the College presidents before making any serious sanctions.

This is not a court of law. Plea bargaining with the NCAA - How can the NCAA justify clearing players that transferred away from UM who allegedly committed the same infractions? This is as unethical as it gets. It makes a mockery of their rules.

Folks the real person that has been horribly wrong is Al Golden. Here is a good and honest man that got his dream job and was lied to by the AD and shalalala. And the only liar left out of that bunch is shalalala.


Rboud. Your not in the game. Check out the other blogs and it is a copy of the limited immunity rules. The hammer is coming, it's just a matter of how hard.

Ps. In the 1405 post it should have said wronged not wrong.

Manny I posted this earlier and hope to get Your opinion on this subject. I have been racking My brain on how this all could be fixed. Espn has weighed in on the subject.But I just want to throw an idea out there. Why cant They install a rule or law? When a kid comes out of h.s. and signs. Make them sign a contract where they are responsible for their actions after they leave the school. Even if they are not pros maybe where they have to pay big fines or serve time to payback their wrong doings. I just think it would put a fear in each individual to walk a straight line. I know these are amatuers but I think if they made it clear to these young kids at the start you would see more people worry about themselves and less irregard to the rules just an idea. Go Canes all the same I hope We put a season together that makes us all feel a little less depressed


I agree that the NCAA should face the death penalty. Let the top 64 - 80 programs quit the NCAA and form their own College Championship League, BUT, right NOW we are dealing with the reality of the NCAA. We are part of it (not that we have another option at the moment) so we have to play by the common rules.

Reality is, has been and always will be that there will be athletic supporters who are more than willing to give benefits to the athletes, as if this somehow makes up for the anatomical shortcoming of the supporter. The NCAA should recognize this and hopefully the soon to be College Championship League will recognize it and not get thier panties in a wad over a boat ride. There would still remain the problem of where to draw the line. Cream cheese for a bagel or a boat ride should not be a big deal, but where is the line? If you are familiar with the philosophical "argument of the beard" (i.e. how many hairs does it take to qualify as a beard? give me a number. I will ask if only 1 less still qualifies.. I think you get the idea) will recognize that it is a very difficult thing to make a discrimination of the exact point at which "something" becomes "too much". The prinicple of "competitive advantage" is a bit easier, but paying for dinner, bowling etc is not so easy.

If college athletes start getting paid, then the implications for "competitive advantage" will pale in comparison to the tax issues facing the colleges. Will the athletic departments even continue to be associated with the colleges/universities or will they be seen as minor league franchises?

as far as it being "communist" - I will not comment. I do not discuss Religion or Politics.

Well it appears that the Canes will be in some high scoring games this season. Most of the offense stays intact and basically every impact player on D will be suspended. Awesome.

I'm no fan of the NCAA, but I doubt they would turn player on player. If they cut limited immunity deals it was to get information on the coaches. What does Matt Patchan or Godfrey know about what the current players were doing? But all of them were recruited by Panunzio, Hurtt and Stoutland. Shannon fired one of them (I know, technically he "left" but I remember it more like "Ok Hurtt, start looking for a job"), which means the institution, once they found out about it, handled the situation. It's possible they didn't know about the others.

I think the players will be cleared. I think the coaches are in trouble, and the question then becomes what happens to UM since all the coaches and the AD are gone? Definitely not the death penalty though.

iguel- No one is questioning your loyalty. The U did break rules, and some players may have taken money. The problem is the lack of even handedness that the NCAA "investigates' and doles out punishment.

You cannot for one second tell me or anyone with half of brain that USC (reggie Bush is the tip of the iceberg), Oklahoma, Alabama, texas, Nebraska, OSU, UF, FSU are squeaky clean. ALL of theose programs have HUUUGE Boosters that donate millions. Will youtell me that at pi55ant little towns, like Tuscaloosa, that Boosters wont take kids out etc etc, give them barbe cue's (as iilegal as taking a kid on a yacht) or whatever? Newsflash: IT HAPPENS!

But the NCAA despises Miami. Always has always will, because its run by lilly white suits (wont use the word racists), who are uncomfortable by the city swag, the dancing the hip hop. They hate it. THAT is why the MIAMI rule was created. Miami has not been the only program who has been in brawls, but they use the FIU brawl, and others to fuel their argument.

The fact that they went with a YAhoo story by a convicted lying, cheating thief, proves that they will believe anything as long it is against Miami. THEN they start sorting through all of the allegations (only because they have to) with fake indignation.

So what. The U will be back. EFF everyone else. No one understands

Two questions fManny,

I understand going after the big fishes, but it seems that Randy Shannon went out of his way to keep boosters, especially Shapiro away from the team and gave explicit instructions to coaches/players to do the same. As it relates to the football team, Randy would have to be the big fish. If he had a specific policy in place against guys like Shaprio, can the NCAA still conclude there was a lack of institutional control if assistant coaches and/or players broke the rules?

As for the athletic director on up to the president, Shapiro was a booster and therefore entitled to any of the perks people at his contribution level would get. He also acknowledged he knew the rules and didn't care to follow them. It seems the NCAA concluding the higher ups should have known what he was up to is like saying his Ponzi scheme victims should have known he was running a Ponzi scheme. Can you give us a hypothetical where you could envision the NCAA concluding a big fish was up to no good?

Manny - don't take the "fManny" as a personal shot... that was a typo.

Posted by: Best cfb program the last 32 years

Geezus you're a moron. Out to duh U?? Look what they did to USC, UNC, Alabama a few years back, and Ohio State.

If the yahoo story was about FSU or UF, you would be crying for the death penalty not NCAA reform. In mean time, sit back and enjoy the season.

Hey "Best cfb program the last 32 years" (what a joke of a name), you're a fool. The NCAA despieses Miami because of "the city swag, the dancing the hip hop". Dude, you're an idiot, and you exemplify the type of idiots that support UM. What the hell is the "city swag"? I'm a life long Miamian and there's no such thing as the "city swag". You think they don't have "swag" in other cities? You think they only "dance hip hop" in Miami? Get real bro. Take a road trip somewhere. Nobody in the NCAA, or in the US, give a damn about the city of Miami. Your program is corrupt as hell and it's about to get smashed, deservingly so. Accept it and stop playing "the race card". Every college football program in America is full of black kids "with swag" and who "dance hip hop". Miami isn't special. The only thing special is that clowns like you are so delUsional.

Oh, and just because schools have boosters doesn't mean they are corrupt like UM. You're like the kid in class who gets caught cheating and claims "everybody's cheating" in order to make yourself feel better.

Now go support a new team to root for and start repping your alma mater: MDCC.


"despises" not "despieses"

Your old players and your old recruits are all turning on U to save their hide. Many more will soon turn as well. So much for "The U is a family" (and Lil Luke is your "big cuz 4 life" or at least he is to Devin Hester).

Funny, a lot of those listed as current athletes were either highly touted recruits that never seemed to live up to their potential or players that showed flashes of potential but then never developed into good players.....coincidence? Doubt it.

ltcdolphin: Yes, the NCAA has rules, but we all know that they are WAY outdated and biased..they are the Gestapo...

The problem needs to be gutted at the source, which is the Agents, Boosters, Coaches, and Administrators. The NCAA should draft a law and presented to all 50 states and legislated. This law would carry a $5000-10000 fine and a sentence of 6-12 months in prison. This law would be considered a 3rd degree misdemeanor. What these scum bags like Shapiro do to the athletic programs throughout the country is much worse than any 3rd degree Grand theft! This would put an end to this problem once and for all...levying stupid sanctions, suspensions, etc., is ridiculous and NOT getting to the root of the problem...Come on NCAA, get some Gonads!

The Sun Sentinel is reporting that Mike Glazier is being retained by the U as its legal counsel. Who is Mike Glazier? He is the founder of Bond, Schoeneck and King's Collegiate Sports Practice Group.

Before joining Bond, Schoeneck & King, Mr. Glazier co-founded the Slive/Glazier Sports Group. Yes, that MIKE SLIVE, now COMMISSIONER OF THE SEC....hmmm

So it appears we have a BATTLE ROYAL shaping up. It's basically the NCAA v. the NCAA.

Now the Collegiate Sports Practice Group must be a high-powered association of attorney's all making mid-three figures per hour. Shalala appears to be hiring the best, most well connected attorney's in the business to protect her job. Problem is, she is doing it with the school's endowment, so the longer this drags on, the heavier the hit to the school's safety net.

Sue the NCAA? Calling all donors, this could be a battle of attrition. How much will she spend to save her job?

The only hope is that all the coaches except for Hurtt and the basketball coaches Haith and two assistants will be cleared. That leaves one rogue football coach who was dealt with by Shannon and 3 rogue basketball coaches (HC included which is bad). If it stays there and doesnt go up to assistant AD or the AD we will get what USC got. If it goes up to the ADs and possibly Shalala we will gt worse.

On a side note what a disaster the
Northwestern kids turned out to be. They never gave their all and then in their final season they wanted to finally make something of their college career and they are about to be suspended. Unfortunately for them, for the football program and for the school and fans its too little too late. I'm sure they will be suspended before the season starts which will decimate our year and for them they will go out as they came in great potential that was never fulfilled. Its a shame!


Chill a little bro and think.

First, To make the leap from an overly authoritarian organization which seeks to preserve its existence to the GESTAPO seems to cover more than a little gap.

Secondly, do you really believe that a "3rd degree misdemeanor" (when Florida only has two levels of misdemeanor, and a second degree misdemeanor is less than a first degree one, but I do not want to bother you with legal realities... please read on) do you think a potential misdmeanor charge is going to stop someone like Shapiro, when statutes like FIRST DEGREE GRAND THEFT or SOLICITING PROTITUTION or FRAUD or any of the many FEDERAL FELONIES he has been convicted of (let alone possible State charges) do not seem to have stopped him?

Legislating "tough penalties" does not change behavior. Look at all the politicians who have gotten themselves elected promising to be tough on crime, yet crime does seem to be a growth industry. States with the death penalty do not have a lower rate of homicide than states without the death penalty. What difference do you think it will make if the NCAA eliminates the death penalty? More infractions, less infractions or none? Obviously, FEDERAL FELONY charges did not stop Shapiro, Madoff, Rothstein and which do you think would have a more chilling effect on behavior - state misdemeanor charges or federal felonies?

Think with your head... the one on top of your neck. (you are the one who is bringing gonads into the conversation)

Fellow posters,

A great and, as always, spirited discussion. I appreciate all the good ideas on this blog. It is therapeutic during a real tough time for those of us who love the U.

For all true Canes fans, let's hope for the best!

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